Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Kaleredar]

Are we really back to the equivalent of "The Jews provoked the Nazis" again? Or maybe now it's just "Yeah, the Nazis were bad but it was also the Jews fault"?

The “good” thing here is that trump is a deranged liar and everyone knows it, so him saying one thing or another won’t change the minds of anyone who actually matters.

The unfortunate part is that Trump can act in a unilateral fashion regardless of whether anyone believes him or not.


As I’ve been saying, Europe, it’s time to step the fuck up.

[Dezerte]

The “good” thing here is that trump is a deranged liar and everyone knows it, so him saying one thing or another won’t change the minds of anyone who actually matters.

The unfortunate part is that Trump can act in a unilateral fashion regardless of whether anyone believes him or not.


As I’ve been saying, Europe, it’s time to step the fuck up.

I think repairing relations after 2024 Trump is going to be tougher than 2016 Trump.

[Bwgmon]

I think repairing relations after 2024 Trump is going to be tougher than 2016 Trump.

It's going to be a decades-long effort for any trust to return. Until the fear that another Trump might pop up and shit on everything is quelled, at the very least.

[NED funded]

I forgot to comment on this b4 it happened but a lot of the analysis on why the USD is the world currency is missing what makes a currency a good candidate. The USD meets the following criteria:

1) Its readily available in vast supply. There are no shortage of dollars in the world and if you want dollars you can get some

2) Its very easy to move. Despite sanctions, the dollar remains as the most flexible currency to move around between countries

3) Lack of government control and honoring of contracts. The government doesnt impose that many restrictions on the dollars and honours its contracts

No currency meets the criteria. The US doesnt do anything particularly good but the rest of the currencies just do a terrible job. The Euro basically became irrelevant with the rest of its economy and China has too many controls on its currencies to be a world currency. You can put money in, but good luck taking that money out.

[Kaleredar]

3) Lack of government control and honoring of contracts. The government doesnt impose that many restrictions on the dollars and honours its contracts

How long that's gonna hold true for?

[Doomcookie]

Not really no. I just do not subscribe to the narrative that this whole mess is Russia's fault alone.

Why do you want Russia to keep murdering kids?

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Forced is such a strong word. "Incite" would be better.

Why do you like to blame the victim?

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When I was saying the same things as Trump, people here were calling me a Russian troll and they were saying that Trump will continue what Biden did because it's so profitable and beneficial for the US.

Now what are you going to say when your president himself is saying exactly what I said?

Like it or not, Trump is not a random forum member like me, he is the president of the US.

Ukraine aspirations to become a NATO member incited Russia to invade.

People were right.

You keep blaming the victim, because you like the idea of Putin killing kids.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Forced is such a strong word. "Incite" would be better.

Oh, nice suspense builder. But no more teasing...it's time for the big reveal!

[Endus]

When I was saying the same things as Trump, people here were calling me a Russian troll and they were saying that Trump will continue what Biden did because it's so profitable and beneficial for the US.

And? Trump's a Russian troll, too.

Now what are you going to say when your president himself is saying exactly what I said?

That Trump's long been known to be aligned with Russia. This isn't new information.

Like it or not, Trump is not a random forum member like me, he is the president of the US.

And? Doesn't mean he isn't a troll. Just means he's a troll with power.

Ukraine aspirations to become a NATO member incited Russia to invade.

NATO is a mutual defense pact. NATO membership for Ukraine would not have affected Russia in any capacity whatsoever unless Russia was already planning an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine.

All this could ever have done was move up Russia's timeline for an already-planned invasion. So then you're back to "Russia was planning a hostile and unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, and you're still lying about basic facts.

Nothing Ukraine did "incited" Russia in any way. Every argument to that effect is a lie. And you know it's a lie.

[NED funded]

Where are people getting the idea that Ukraine has ever tried to join NATO or that the West was courting Ukraine with NATO membership.

Ever since the 2014 takeover of Crimea, the West and Europe in particular were very meek and docile wrt Russia and guarantees that Ukraine would not join NATO.

Obama has said multiple times that only countries that have full territorial integrity are allowed as candidates to join NATO. This is important bc after 2014, Ukraine didn't have territorial integrity. This policy didnt change under Trump. Germany bowed to Russia in an attempt to get that gas pipeline built and didnt do anything wrt Ukraine. B4 2014, the policy was the same. What Ukraine had wanted and always wanted was economic ties to Europe. That hardly can be described as a push to join NATO given that many European countries have economic ties to Europe and never joined NATO

[DarkTZeratul]

Where are people getting the idea that Ukraine has ever tried to join NATO or that the West was courting Ukraine with NATO membership.

The west certainly hasn't been "courting Ukraine with NATO membership," just because that's not really a thing NATO even does, but Ukraine expressed an explicit desire to join NATO at least as early as 2002.

[NED funded]

The west certainly hasn't been "courting Ukraine with NATO membership," just because that's not really a thing NATO even does, but Ukraine expressed an explicit desire to join NATO at least as early as 2002.

Do you have articles on this?

I remember those years and I did some digging and Ukraine had passed laws explicitly against joining NATO

Ukraine’s new governing coalition recently announced its intention to pass a law against joining military alliances, which will fulfill Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych’s campaign promise to prevent Ukraine from becoming a member in NATO. The new president’s opponents in parliament argue that this new strategy may result in pushing Ukraine back into the Russian “sphere of influence” and out of the European fold.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2...ys-no-to-nato/

From 2010

[Kaleredar]

Do you have articles on this?

I remember those years and I did some digging and Ukraine had passed laws explicitly against joining NATO



https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2...ys-no-to-nato/

From 2010

hmmm

seems like that guy shouldn't have done that

[DarkTZeratul]

Do you have articles on this?

I remember those years and I did some digging and Ukraine had passed laws explicitly against joining NATO

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2...ys-no-to-nato/

From 2010

Yanukovych is hardly an example of what Ukraine wants. That's the president who was a literal Russian puppet, who rejected NATO and the EU in favor of closer ties with Russia, who was ousted when the people staged a revolution against him in 2014 (hey, guess what happened immediately after that), and who now lives in exile in Russia.

Per Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrain...NATO_relations

• Leonid Kuchma, who was president of Ukraine from 1994-2005, spent his entire presidency forging closer ties with NATO and expressed an explicit desire to join in 2002.
• His successor, Viktor Yushchenko (2005-2010), also supported NATO membership for Ukraine, and actually submitted an official letter to NATO in 2008 applying for a Membership Action Plan.
• Almost immediately after Yanukovych was ousted, Russia invaded Ukraine, and naturally the subject of NATO membership came up again.

[alach]

Yanukovych is hardly an example of what Ukraine wants. That's the president who was a literal Russian puppet, who rejected NATO and the EU in favor of closer ties with Russia, who was ousted when the people staged a revolution against him in 2014 (hey, guess what happened immediately after that), and who now lives in exile in Russia.

Per Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrain...NATO_relations

• Leonid Kuchma, who was president of Ukraine from 1994-2005, spent his entire presidency forging closer ties with NATO and expressed an explicit desire to join in 2002.
• His successor, Viktor Yushchenko (2005-2010), also supported NATO membership for Ukraine, and actually submitted an official letter to NATO in 2008 applying for a Membership Action Plan.
• Almost immediately after Yanukovych was ousted, Russia invaded Ukraine, and naturally the subject of NATO membership came up again.

Yep, that's the history. As soon as putin lost his man installed in Kyiv by an election so overwhelming they couldn't rig, he decided to get what he wanted with force instead of subterfuge.
He did the same in Belarus, only the election results were ignored so it unfortunately turned out differently.

[DarkTZeratul]

As soon as putin lost his man installed in Kyiv by an election so overwhelming they couldn't rig, he decided to get what he wanted with force instead of subterfuge.

It wasn't even an election. There were months of largescale protests, which grew increasingly violent, against his corruption and Russian influence. These led to a deal brokered by EU negotiators to restore Ukraine's constitution to its 2004 state (Yanukovych had pressured the judiciary to declare the 2004 constitutional reforms unconstitutional and overturn them in 2010) in order to appease the protestors, a deal that Ukraine's parliament unanimously approved. Yanukovych subsequently just straight up vanished, so parliament declared that under the terms of the 2004 Constitution that had just been reinstated, the president was unable to fulfill his duties and power temporarily transferred to the Prime Minister. Then they immediately - and, again unanimously, including Yanukovych's own party - voted to remove Yanukovych from office and hold an early election for a successor.

Turns out Yanukovych was trying to flee to Russia, and though he was caught at the border, Russian forces helped him escape a few days later.

[zealo]

When I was saying the same things as Trump, people here were calling me a Russian troll and they were saying that Trump will continue what Biden did because it's so profitable and beneficial for the US.

Now what are you going to say when your president himself is saying exactly what I said?

Like it or not, Trump is not a random forum member like me, he is the president of the US.

Ukraine aspirations to become a NATO member incited Russia to invade.

Trying to use Trump’s words and actions against being called a Russian troll while he is in the process of utterly dismantling US foreign influence on the world stage to the benefit of Russia and China, and doing his utmost domestically to force a dictatorship isn’t exactly the gotcha you seem to think it is.

The US populace elected a collection of stooges gargling Russian balls, swallowing, and asking for more.

[Nymrohd]

Trying to use Trump’s words and actions against being called a Russian troll while he is in the process of utterly dismantling US foreign influence on the world stage to the benefit of Russia and China, and doing his utmost domestically to force a dictatorship isn’t exactly the gotcha you seem to think it is.

The US populace elected a collection of stooges gargling Russian balls, swallowing, and asking for more.

I don't really see how this is to the benefit of China. China has immensely benefited from the current rules-based system; this is what allowed them access to foreign markets and if anything, they'd like to see its return. Neoliberal capitalism is the basis of their strength. Their power lies entirely in trade and prosperity that fuels consumption. Their economy will not respond well to large scale trade disruptions which are inevitable if Trump collapses the rules-based system.

[Dezerte]

I don't really see how this is to the benefit of China. China has immensely benefited from the current rules-based system; this is what allowed them access to foreign markets and if anything, they'd like to see its return. Neoliberal capitalism is the basis of their strength. Their power lies entirely in trade and prosperity that fuels consumption. Their economy will not respond well to large scale trade disruptions which are inevitable if Trump collapses the rules-based system.

It might not be entirely rational but I suspect it has something to do with the expected isolation and waning of US soft power, internationally. It might lead to issues for China, but it also opens up the door for China to become a world leader.

[Nymrohd]

It might not be entirely rational but I suspect it has something to do with the expected isolation and waning of US soft power, internationally. It might lead to issues for China, but it also opens up the door for China to become a world leader.

China is smarter than that. What they have created was not made through short terminist nonsense. The reality is that some form of world power is needed and they cannot provide it (they have neither the power projection capability nor the requisite trust in transparency of their economy and impartiality of their judicial). It's not just Russia that would get ideas about moving through force and violence if the rules-based system completely collapses (and it is deeply wounded right now). Almost everyone will. More war means less trade.

[Wilian]

I don't really see how this is to the benefit of China. China has immensely benefited from the current rules-based system; this is what allowed them access to foreign markets and if anything, they'd like to see its return. Neoliberal capitalism is the basis of their strength. Their power lies entirely in trade and prosperity that fuels consumption. Their economy will not respond well to large scale trade disruptions which are inevitable if Trump collapses the rules-based system.

China aspires to be in the lead of said "system". US aping itself out is of their interest.