Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Draco-Onis]

So here's the problem with that. Magats didn't see the whole press conference they saw specific sliced together segments. I nearly screamed at work when the dipshits were talking about how Zel was hard to work with. I wish Americans were rational but a lot no longer are and are completely insulated from reality.

North Korean I mean Fox News came to the rescue of the dear leader and kept on talking about how "disrespectful" Zelensky was and how manly Trump was to stand up to him literally the opposite of reality.

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Trump is a disgrace. He is a disgrace, his behaviour on the oval office belongs to corrupt petty officials in Latin America, I know bc I had to deal with it. But like corrupt petty officials you need to asage his ego. And you can say that Zelensky doesnt HAVE to do it and I would agree. If this was any other president but Trump. Its a tradeoff, do you want weapons from the US now or do you want to rely on the cheap words of European countries. The fact that continous support from the US is dependent on Trumps ego says enough about how I think or feel about the situation but if you are the Ukranian leader you need to consider those sort of situations.

You aren't listening, this was a set up do you think it's happenstance that Russian Media was in the room? this was an ambush. The only way Zelensky maybe could have gotten out of this was if he was using a translator because he could have faked his way out of it. This played out exactly like Trump wanted for his beloved, JD Vance can't sneeze without permission he gave his balls away a long time ago.

[Voidism]

Also I think Zelensky made a real point that should be made clear to literally every Trump Simp and Russian simp on this thread. Agreements arent worth anything if you dont have the enforcement mechanisms to deal with it. Zelensky rightfully pointed out that Russia violated every single agreement they ever made.

You're arguing against people who aren't here.

My point is not if he is RIGHT or not. My point is that Zelenskyy should have either sent someone who can "eat shit with a smile" or done it himself.

He DOES have the weight of a whole country on his shoulders. But that just makes this even worse, not better. I don't think he needs to resign, but he does need to send folks when he himself can't handle something like this.

Righteousness taste kinda bad when you realize that your righteousness put peoples lives at risk. Yes, Trump is a shitface who is narcissistic. But that's who he needed to deal with. You argue theory, when we live in reality. Disney view of this conflict.

Why is this so difficult to understand? Or is this some kind of "scream at the top of my lungs" kinda thread that's not meant to go anywhere or make anyone understand what's going on?

[Xath]

You're arguing against people who aren't here.

My point is not if he is RIGHT or not. My point is that Zelenskyy should have either sent someone who can "eat shit with a smile" or done it himself.

He DOES have the weight of a whole country on his shoulders. But that just makes this even worse, not better. I don't think he needs to resign, but he does need to send folks when he himself can't handle something like this.

Righteousness taste kinda bad when you realize that your righteousness put peoples lives at risk. Yes, Trump is a shitface who is narcissistic. But that's who he needed to deal with. You argue theory, when we live in reality. Disney view of this conflict.

Why is this so difficult to understand? Or is this some kind of "scream at the top of my lungs" kinda thread that's not meant to go anywhere or make anyone understand what's going on?

And I already expanded on why that would be a horrible idea. Putin expected him to bend the knee and to depress the morale of the Ukrainian people. Instead he came out of a no win scenario with the backing of the entire free world outside the US and pledges to increase aid. If he had bent the knee he just would have been giving up the few assets he has for a puppet that can be told to back off at anytime. Doing this will help Ukraine as they will divest themselves from a country that is as of now poised to stab them in the back as we have continually refused to condemn russia post trump winning.

[Wyrt]

Why is this so difficult to understand?

Ok, help me understand.

Ukraine gives the US their rare earth minerals further weakening their already devastated economy and making rebuilding the country harder. Ukraine accepts Trump's peace deal that heavily favors Russia ceding land and diplomatically isolating themselves with no security guarantees. Russia comes back in ~5 years to annex the rest of Ukraine and the rest of the world impotently wags their fingers at Russia again while doing nothing.

What is the benefit for Ukraine here?

[Poopymonster]

You aren't listening, this was a set up do you think it's happenstance that Russian Media was in the room? this was an ambush. The only way Zelensky maybe could have gotten out of this was if he was using a translator because he could have faked his way out of it. This played out exactly like Trump wanted for his beloved, JD Vance can't sneeze without permission he gave his balls away a long time ago.

Vance should have just fucked the couch right then and there. It would have been less embarrassing for him.

[Xath]

Vance should have just fucked the couch right then and there. It would have been less embarrassing for him.

You know you could have just not reminded me of that not like I need to remember just how beyond embarrassing our elected "leaders" are.

[Jastall]

You're arguing against people who aren't here.

My point is not if he is RIGHT or not. My point is that Zelenskyy should have either sent someone who can "eat shit with a smile" or done it himself.

He DOES have the weight of a whole country on his shoulders. But that just makes this even worse, not better. I don't think he needs to resign, but he does need to send folks when he himself can't handle something like this.

Righteousness taste kinda bad when you realize that your righteousness put peoples lives at risk. Yes, Trump is a shitface who is narcissistic. But that's who he needed to deal with. You argue theory, when we live in reality. Disney view of this conflict.

Why is this so difficult to understand? Or is this some kind of "scream at the top of my lungs" kinda thread that's not meant to go anywhere or make anyone understand what's going on?

The Disney view is thinking Zelensky taking it on the chin would have changed anything. This wasn't some secret test of character intended to determine the course of History itself. Trump would have done this whole dressing down session for his amusement, humored the idea of a mineral deal, then walk back whenever convenient for him because he's decided years ago who he was going to back in this conflict, and it's not Ukraine. Trump has demonstrated his word, and the deals he makes, are hardly worth the paper printed upon them time and again; ask this Canadian for proof. There's no way he was sincere about any of this if his way of starting a negotiation was to publicly whine that another head of State isn't kissing his nuts to the man's face, with an obsequious toady right next echoing the sentiment to boot.

Zelensky probably figured it was all a waste of his time that wouldn't help him on the home front. All he has left is to hold on for as long as possible until Starlink is cut by the actual President, then hope against hope Europe can help him enough to stall the war for long enough that something resembling a not-completely-lopsided peace deal can be made, and the next President isn't intent on nuking American soft power for the sake of his obsession with foreign dictators and Jabba the Hut impersonation. Which is a bit of a long shot to be sure, but Trump has decided he backed Russia a decade ago so that's the path lying in front of Ukraine.

[Deus Mortis]

It's not a "fact" to begin with. And you're basically trying to argue the USA is a big enough bully everyone should just surrender to their whims, no matter how abusive. The USA likes to pretend that they're indispensable, but it's like the rich kid showing up at the party with a keg, pretending like he's the only way anyone would get to drink beer. Sure, it's convenient that we get free beer, but if you're a rapist asshole, you're not getting invited to the fucking party any more, and we'll be just fine without your beer, thanks.

The USA isn't even providing most of the support to Ukraine. EU support vastly outpaces US support. The USA may be the largest single donor to the Ukrainian cause, but it won't crumble without that support. Especially with EU leaders talking about ramping up support in the expectation of the USA being a petty-ass bitch.

Can the EU makeup for the loss in military arms aspect though?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218

Who has supplied the most military aid?
The US has been the biggest source of military aid to Ukraine, including weapons, equipment and financial support.

Between the start of 2022 and the end of 2024, it gave $69bn (£54.6bn) in military aid, according to German think tank the Kiel Institute.

Germany has given $13.6bn (£10.7bn), the UK $10.8bn (£8.5bn), Denmark $8.1bn (£6.4bn), and the Netherlands $6.3bn (£4.9bn).

[Wilian]

Haltbatt Bunkers, Norweigian fuel company has ceased fueling US ships and urges others to do the same.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/norw...-over-ukraine/

"We have today been witnesses to the biggest shitshow ever on live tv" as they call it, while praising Zelensky.

This is the sort of response world needs to shove down the throat of Ape in Office.

[KrayZ33]

You're arguing against people who aren't here.

My point is not if he is RIGHT or not. My point is that Zelenskyy should have either sent someone who can "eat shit with a smile" or done it himself.

He DOES have the weight of a whole country on his shoulders. But that just makes this even worse, not better. I don't think he needs to resign, but he does need to send folks when he himself can't handle something like this.

Righteousness taste kinda bad when you realize that your righteousness put peoples lives at risk. Yes, Trump is a shitface who is narcissistic. But that's who he needed to deal with. You argue theory, when we live in reality. Disney view of this conflict.

Why is this so difficult to understand? Or is this some kind of "scream at the top of my lungs" kinda thread that's not meant to go anywhere or make anyone understand what's going on?

The difficult part is to understand that without the guarantees, Zelensky does not provide for his country.
And Trump wouldn't give it to him, no matter how much Zelensky made it clear, that you can't use diplomacy with Putin.

[Draco-Onis]

The difficult part is to understand that without the guarantees, Zelensky does not provide for his country.
And Trump wouldn't give it to him, no matter how much Zelensky made it clear, that you can't use diplomacy with Putin.

If you listen to the whole thing Trump says that Putin respects him and would never break a deal with him. Zelensky cannot take that home since Trump isn't immortal even if he was right, he has to think about what will happen to his country years from now when Russia is stronger and more prepared.

[Corvus]

Never expected the US economy to crash before the russian one but it's looking more likely now.

[OwenBurton]

Yes. Yes, it is what it is - he had no power there and no business getting into this dumb argument in front of the media.

Zelensky was correct in 90% of what he said. Trump was correct in one thing he said - Zelensky has no leverage. That one correct statement means much more than 10 correct statements from Zelensky.

I think that Trump made a mistake there too, but I really expected Zelensky to not supply the ammo for that to happen - I really took him for much smarter than that.



Europe can't do shit - don't even think Europe can actually replace the void US will leave if it bails. It's really that simple.

Trump is correct in stating that Zelensky can say and do what he does mostly because US was firmly behind him. Without US, he has many sympathies, but little actual leverage. His people aren't going to be loading those guns and making those drones out of solidarity tweets.

No, I quite disagree, he was basically blackmailing Zelensky from the start. Even if he had kowtowed to him, there was little real certainty that he could have succeeded. Even if this meeting went well, there is no guarantee any future one would have ended the same way. Even had the rare minerals agreement been signed, the current administration could have found a way to subtly back out of it or severely twist it in the future against Kyiv somehow. Do not forget that many in his previous administration, most of them still staunch conservatives, are now no longer in his graces either, and they too were among his favorite confidantes for a time.

And I had expected more from Vance, who is married to a highly educated Indian woman, who once strongly spoke out against the current President, who rose from an impoverished background to become an Ivy League graduate, to be more than this. His debate with Walz, I actually found very refreshing and honest and cordial. I read some of his memoir, and I thought he spoke many important truths about cultural issues keeping many dysfunctional Appalachian families down, his discussion of the pros and cons of ongoing welfare to the people living in that region, etc. Usha recently in fact told him to be kinder in some of his statements, but it seems her husband is in reality as unpredictable as the man he works for. And in fairness, Vance has already said he doesn't "really care what happens to Ukraine, one way or another" in a previous podcast interview.

The current administration's so-called "anti-war" charade is nothing but a cheap joke, shiny and polished on the outside, but a poison pill on the inside. This betrayal was an atrocious act, and this has definitely made me rethink MANY things about the state of American politics and society. As deeply flawed as some Democrats might be, as out of touch sometimes as they are with the needs of the working class....I mean, this episode, wow, it has shocked me beyond words frankly. And the fact that so many Republicans are actually happy about this or painting it as a major victory is indeed sickening in the extreme.

There are some things human beings and especially democratic leaders are ALWAYS supposed to uphold and stand for, inviolable truths and moral principles that should never be distorted or subverted. Such as firmly opposing a completely unjustified and extremely devastating invasion of another sovereign state. This was an outright ambush, if not a trap, and a deeply damaging one to both sides in the long run.

P.S. This is what those supporting the President are saying about Ukraine's leader recently:

[Kaleredar]

The current administration's so-called "anti-war" charade is nothing but a cheap joke, shiny and polished on the outside but a poison pill on the inside. T

I disagree.

It wasn't shiny and polished at all. It was "I don't like war " written in sharpie on a crumpled up post-it note half-stuck to a gun aimed at Ukraine.


Nobody should ever have been fooled by Trump claiming to be "anti-war."

[OwenBurton]

It wasn't shiny and polished at all. It was "I don't like war " written in sharpie on a crumpled up post-it note half-stuck to a gun aimed at Ukraine.

Nobody should ever have been fooled by Trump claiming to be "anti-war."

It is a very low point for democracy as a whole for things to have come to this dangerous point. And yes, most Republican politicians still support this, with some very few exceptions.

Alaska Senator Lisa Murkowski, a moderate Republican who is something of a political thorn in Trump's side, posted on X on Saturday: "I am sick to my stomach as the administration appears to be walking away from our allies and embracing Putin."

Republican Rep Mike Lawler of New York called the meeting "a missed opportunity for both the United States and Ukraine".

Fellow Rep Don Bacon of Nebraska said it was "a bad day for America's foreign policy".

"Ukraine wants independence, free markets and rule of law. It wants to be part of the West. Russia hates us and our Western values. We should be clear that we stand for freedom," he said in a statement.

Neither Republican directly criticised Trump or Vance, who first quarrelled with Zelensky during the meeting.

Democrats, meanwhile, lambasted the White House.

"Trump and Vance are doing Putin's dirty work," Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said.

Senator Chris Coons said Zelensky deserved better.

"We owe him our thanks for leading a nation fighting on the front lines of democracy - not the public berating he received at the White House," he posted on X.

Most Republicans laud Trump after Zelensky showdown, but some express dismay

But indeed, without American aid, what could Europe do to aid Ukraine? This recent BBC analysis I read of such a scenario is really very bleak and not promising. I never realized how dependent on US security, technology and resources that even leading European nations are right now. In fact, if Russia invaded tomorrow, I really don't know how most of Europe would fare alone in a direct conflict. Russia at this moment is indeed far stronger than Britain or France or Germany, and the massive power gap between them is almost scary if you really look into it.

He suggests that that in itself might be a deterrent to Russia attacking again. But even his administration thinks there must be some hard power too - provided by others. It'll be up to European nations to do that. The question is not just whether Europe has the will: does it have the numbers too?

The short answer is no. That is why Sir Keir Starmer has been pressing for additional US security guarantees from the world's most powerful military.

Britain is not alone in cutting its armed forces in response to the end of the Cold War. That trend in Europe is slowly being reversed, with more nations increasing defence spending.

But Europe, on its own, would not be able to provide a force of 100-200,000 international troops, which Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky suggests would be needed to deter Russia from attacking again.

While Europe has recently overtaken the US in terms of the proportion of Western weapons supplied to Ukraine, one Western source said the US had provided "the cream" - such as long range missiles and air defence systems.

European nations also do not have the necessary enablers to conduct large-scale military operations on their own. The supply of Western weapons to Ukraine has been dependent on US logistics.

Nato's bombing campaign over Libya in 2011 also highlighted deficiencies - with European nations supposedly taking the lead, but still dependent on US support. Allies relied on US refuelling tankers and US targeting.

Sir Keir may still believe there's room for negotiation, that the US might still be willing to back a European force. But as for Donald Trump's question - would Britain be able to take on Russia's military? Even though Russian forces have been weakened, the answer is no.

Can Europe deter Russia in Ukraine without US military?

P.S. The Republican basis for opposing Ukraine and Zelensky seems to be tied to perceptions of Ukraine being too close with the previous administration and the Biden family. Many conservatives seem to think Ukraine-Russia's conflict is nothing but a "globalist" war with ulterior motives involved or something.

[prwraith]

You're arguing against people who aren't here.

My point is not if he is RIGHT or not. My point is that Zelenskyy should have either sent someone who can "eat shit with a smile" or done it himself.

He DOES have the weight of a whole country on his shoulders. But that just makes this even worse, not better. I don't think he needs to resign, but he does need to send folks when he himself can't handle something like this.

Righteousness taste kinda bad when you realize that your righteousness put peoples lives at risk. Yes, Trump is a shitface who is narcissistic. But that's who he needed to deal with. You argue theory, when we live in reality. Disney view of this conflict.

Why is this so difficult to understand? Or is this some kind of "scream at the top of my lungs" kinda thread that's not meant to go anywhere or make anyone understand what's going on?

To what end? It's not like signing away his mineral rights would have protected him. In fact Trump explicitly said it wouldn't. So there was no benefit

[NED funded]

You're arguing against people who aren't here.

My point is not if he is RIGHT or not. My point is that Zelenskyy should have either sent someone who can "eat shit with a smile" or done it himself.

He DOES have the weight of a whole country on his shoulders. But that just makes this even worse, not better. I don't think he needs to resign, but he does need to send folks when he himself can't handle something like this.

Righteousness taste kinda bad when you realize that your righteousness put peoples lives at risk. Yes, Trump is a shitface who is narcissistic. But that's who he needed to deal with. You argue theory, when we live in reality. Disney view of this conflict.

Why is this so difficult to understand? Or is this some kind of "scream at the top of my lungs" kinda thread that's not meant to go anywhere or make anyone understand what's going on?

This cuts both ways. How much credibility is Trump willing to throw out bc his ego got hurt? Now we find out he is willing to throw everything that makes the US the US out of the water cuz his ego got hurt and created a wedge so profound it prob wont be recovered at all

[Fugus]

@OwenBurton

If the US stopped helping Ukraine, I don't think it would be JUST the EU helping them at that point. You would also still have the majority of NATO including Canada and other nations. You would also be having many of those nations pushing the US away as they devoted more of their time and resources to Ukraine of this.

Remember, Russian wasn't being destroyed by the United States cutting edge technologies, they were losing to our retired in the attic hand-me-downs.

Edit: As it stands Russia is near economic collapse at this point as I understand it and has North Korea giving them Troops to keep going while China is helping them for a price. Ukraine doesn't need to defeat Russia, it just needs to outlast their collapse.

So, unless Musk has started funneling cash reserves to him during his time at the treasury, what are the odds of Ukraine being able to repel them long enough to have Russia just go bankrupt in the attempt?

And none of that even takes into account the odds of either Trump or Putin keeling over before either of those happening and given their ages and overall health, that isn't off the table either.

Edit again: Also, I recall near the start of this that Ukraine had so many volunteers they were actually having to turn them down. I am thinking they just got a whole new string of volunteers ready to sign up after this, many of them being potential former US soldiers or soldiers from other nations chomping at the bit.

[Kaleredar]

This cuts both ways. How much credibility is Trump willing to throw out bc his ego got hurt? Now we find out he is willing to throw everything that makes the US the US out of the water cuz his ego got hurt and created a wedge so profound it prob wont be recovered at all

Why would he need any credibility?

[Doomcookie]

Because it would easy to quote me or whatever about what you are accusing me.

Why didn't you do that the first several times?