Russian invasion of Ukraine

[SAY HER NAME]

?????

Its kinda wild how disinfo spreads. Obama was roundly criticized for not acting on the Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014. In fact, Obama and Merkel tried a diplomatic approach to Russia. Obama tried many offramps for Rusia after they invaded Crimea. They tried to send people to supervise the elections, humanitarian efforts to control the supposed Russian opression and whatnot. Even at the tailend of his presidency he conceded that Ukraine belonged to Russia and that nothing could be done about it except sanctions. Democrats held this position too until the Russian interference in the election and it radicalized democrats against Russia.

Its kinda wild how people like Volatilis are rewriting history from 11 years ago!!! Its not that long ago and the internet registered every single second it had happened

[Edge-]

Looks like I was incorrect in that they are part of NATO, they "co operate" with NATO whatever the hell that means.

You should really get the very basic facts straight before repeating all the Russian lies and propaganda, bro.

[NineSpine]

You should really get the very basic facts straight before repeating all the Russian lies and propaganda, bro.

It is truly the worst Dunning Kruger I've ever seen.

[diller]

It is truly the worst Dunning Kruger I've ever seen.

It's kinda hilarious and sad at the same time.

[NineSpine]

It's kinda hilarious and sad at the same time.

Can you imagine thinking the UN was founded by the US and that the UN put Ukraine in NATO, and thinking you have a viable opinion on the subject?

[Elder Millennial]

That's fair I may be wrong in terms of number of invasion but scale is also important because the level of an America invasion is quite different to fly overs. America spent billions in bombs in matters of days removing cities from the earth. So if you wanna go into level of destruction and death that is another matter entirely

What the fuck are you talking about?

Aleppo



Grozny

[IMG]https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/sites/defa...grozniy_21.jpg[/IMG]

Chasiv Yar

[IMG]https://www.ap.org/wp-content/upload...096-f50_50.jpg[/IMG]

Bakhmut

[IMG]https://gdb.rferl.org/01000000-c0a8-...w1071_s_d3.jpg[/IMG]

I could post literally fucking hundreds of these going back to the 1950s. WTF are you on about?

[Santti]

What the fuck are you talking about?

I'm guessing he's referring to WW2? I hope not, because that'd be pretty fucking silly.

[Corvus]

And there it is - the sell out continues. Trump has 'paused' all military aid to Ukraine.

Expect it to become permanent soon.

[OwenBurton]

I've said it before, a lot of people seem to be taking the attitude of, "The US is frequently wrong, Russia is opposed to the US, therefore Russia must be right."

Of course, the U.S. government has done enormous wrongs to marginalized communities in its past. I'm a first-year graduate student at a local public college, and my first class has this as the main required text. Howard Zinn's analyis of U.S. history is indeed a profoundly revealing one. Colombus's arrival in the Americas led to the mass enslavement and massacre of Arawaks, or so I've recently learned. Or how many legitimate labor movements were forcibly targeted and violently suppressed by the U.S. government around the time of WW1, as another example?

But it's not relevant in this case because Russia's invasion is still thoroughly unjustified and does nothing to correct American misdeeds in centuries past. I will admit that Americans at least manage to learn from their past and try to rectify them today, while Russia seems to be repeating its former mistakes, over and over again.

There's only two ways out now in answer to your question of how it ends.

1. Zelenskyy, if he wants peace and to make a deal which is uncertain, apologises to Trump for the disrespect shown signs the mineral deal then a ceasefire can begin.

2. The US walks away and Ukraine fights it out with Russia until one side runs out of men.

The better and more realistic way would be to "pause" the conflict (and try to make Kyiv acknowledge Russian de-facto control over the eastern territories, but take care in not recognizing its official sovereignty). Have the U.N. then station forces along their shared border, perhaps with China, India and Brazil at the lead (all three part of BRICS) mediating between them to carefully monitor and secure this agreement in concert with Canada and the EU nations.

Is it a fair agreement? No, maybe not, but it might possibly be the best one achievable in this current landscape. Exploring Kalimdor revealed that practically none of the settlements in Ashenvale were removed after the Fourth War, and most night elf fans were not happy, but it seems after Amirdrassil, they were also had to go with the armistice that their allies agreed to in the end. Because the alternative would mean indefinitely fighting a war against a united enemy which they had no real hope of destroying - without their faction's aid at that.

Remember, Putin is a very old and extremely stressed man, he obviously cannot stay alive forever. So then, simply wait for him to pass away as Russia is momentarily held at bay, then enter serious negotiations with his successor (who would be slightly more moderate at least) to extend this ceasefire into a much more concrete and lasting peace. And then, when the moment is right and tensions have eased somewhat, enter into intense and sustained discussions with the new Russian leader over the future of eastern Ukraine and Crimea.

This current crisis is indeed a very serious one, I myself am very shocked by these recent developments, and which has deeply fractured the very core of the Republican Party, if not now, then it soon will - the ultimate litmus test of what it means to be a "true conservative" in today's America, for better or for worse. Much like the wars in the Middle East split many modern Democrats, so too then will this conflict split the Republican base inevitably.

But I repeat: Many Republican voters do view Russia increasingly positively, and Ukraine with more and more open mistrust and hostility, and I see no easy way right now to effectively reverse such a trend. If there is any comfort at all, it means that far fewer Ukrainian-Americans (like my friend's family) will be voting GOP next election.

If I would give Zelensky any advice, he should honestly reach out to Netanyahu. The current President's view of global geopolitics seems to be largely shaped by his personal interactions/relationships with world leaders, so if Netanyahu manages to bridge things between them or successfully ask him to restart U.S. aid to Ukraine, it would hugely help both his image and Zelensky's. AND most mainstream Republican politicians being pro-Israel government might hesitate to oppose Bibi also if he lent his crucial support to Ukraine at this moment. It would be his chance to prove that he does care about the unity of the democratic Western world beyond his country's security interests.

The Republican Party is no longer shaped by its head, it is shaped by its "heart". This 2017 study also backs this up, Western liberals seem largely influenced by secular logic, empirical reason and scientific materialism, whereas Western conservatives are now influenced by intuition, gut feelings and often spiritual faith, as well as personal ancedotes/experiences.

Americans split on Ukraine, CBS News poll finds




With so many Republicans then turning to Russia and its present worldview (consciously or not), some online even calling for the U.S. to leave/disband the entirety NATO altogether; to impose tariffs on Canada and Mexico or seal America's borders against both; and to even ally anew with Moscow while rejecting the EU and Ukraine, what can be done to convince them otherwise?

[Blur4stuff]

The US economy does not survive having the entire world turn against it. Allying with Russia would make zero difference.

[Veggie50]

The US economy does not survive having the entire world turn against it. Allying with Russia would make zero difference.

Trump doesn’t care about longterm though…

World is surely going to change. Seems to be with far decreased hegemony for the US. Maybe that won’t be too bad a thing for the rest of us.

I just really hope the EU will take their place on that stage.

[Fugus]

Trump doesn’t care about longterm though…

World is surely going to change. Seems to be with far decreased hegemony for the US. Maybe that won’t be too bad a thing for the rest of us.

I just really hope the EU will take their place on that stage.

At this point, as an American, as a nation, we can not be trusted as the worlds police or leader of the free world and we won't be worthy of that title until these people are permanently removed from power and their voters lose any chance of putting more like them in. The entire Republican party is proving they don't respect our allies, don't honor our agreements in word or spirit, can't be trusted in word or deed.

There needs to be an organization that can hold the USA in check even if it tries to ally with another power in an attempt to takeover other nations. While we weren't the best at honoring other nations, we have gone beyond the pale now and blatant as it comes.

Last thing we can trust is Russia, China, North Korea and an Authoritarian USA salivating on how they can divide the world up among themselves. The citizens of all countries would suffer far worse than their citizens do now when the thought of an alternative they could flee to is gone and doubly so when they start scheming against each other for who can backstab who to eat those. Power hungry dictators aren't known for letting others alone if they think they have a chance of getting more power for themselves, especially as those dictators are replaced over time.

[Kaleredar]

Trump doesn’t care about longterm though…

World is surely going to change. Seems to be with far decreased hegemony for the US. Maybe that won’t be too bad a thing for the rest of us.

I just really hope the EU will take their place on that stage.

And that really does depend here.

With the US basically abdicating its world power on Trump's behalf, there's a power vacuum. Right now, China is the most poised to take those reins, with Russia regionally filling in the gaps.

So the EU and Europe as a whole (Along with Canada, Japan, South Korea, etc) better move damn fast unless they want to cede that power to a government perhaps slightly more decorous than Trump's, but no less autocratic and oppressive. Hell, moreso than Trump's. China is what Trump aspires to be.

[Fugus]

And you can best bet when the USA truly starts collapsing and fast, that military will start looking like a good way to distract and prevent it by attacking others.

[korijenkins]

And you can best bet when the USA truly starts collapsing and fast, that military will start looking like a good way to distract and prevent it by attacking others.

Basically the "last gasp" Russia is currently undergoing.

You could argue the US has been in that phase the last 20 or so years already, invading Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Fugus]

Basically the "last gasp" Russia is currently undergoing.

You could argue the US has been in that phase the last 20 or so years already, invading Afghanistan and Iraq.

Not really, the USA with Afghan and Iraq wasn't our last gasp. Clinton had actually left us on a good trajectory until Bush Jr screwed it up. While we have been on a steady downturn since Reagan, Clinton had put us in a place where we could start making SOME progress cleaning it up. Nothing great but stable and paying down the debt. Bush Jr blew that up and Obama spent his entire time cleaning up Bush's mess while handing away power trying to compromise the only time he had a chance to actually do more followed by the GOP blocking everything before, during, and after that point.

From Trumps first term onward though, yeah, even under ideal circumstances, kids born today will have died of old age before the mess would be cleaned up.

But this would be our TRUE last gasp, when the GOP know we are about to collapse, doesn't matter if it's their fault to them, just to hold that off, I can very much see them trying to use the military to invade others and prop ourselves up to keep themselves in power at that point though, it would just be delaying the inevitable because it doesn't matter how much they want to raid, rape, and pillage, if they don't admit they are wrong, it will all collapse in the end anyways.

Edit: And while not a religious person myself. Some stuff is just striking.

1) What does the bible say about the guy who wants to build golden statues of himself in gods kingdom? Their the antichrist as I understand it. Well Trump wants to build golden statues of himself right along Jerusalem (AKA Gods Kingdom). Almost like they witnessed a guy like Trump in the past and where it lead them.

Then we got
2) Trumpets are supposed to be the harbinger of the apocalypse, while Trump Pence looks like Trump wanting to set the stage for it if that's what it takes for him to keep power. No words on just how eerily close that one is.

[alach]

The scariest part of this is that donald j trump is exactly like these forum trolls that pop up from time to time.
They come in here with misinformation are adamant they are correct. Pages and pages of people argue with them and try and correct them, present them with facts, truths, charts, documents, etc etc.
In the end it didn't matter, they didn't change their minds. They end up banned, but they still think they are right.
This is how trump is right this moment on Ukraine, tariffs, whatever else, and hes going to bring the world down to its knees believing hes right as the rest of the worlds wastes their time trying to correct him.

[Kaleredar]

The scariest part of this is that donald j trump is exactly like these forum trolls that pop up from time to time.
They come in here with misinformation are adamant they are correct. Pages and pages of people argue with them and try and correct them, present them with facts, truths, charts, documents, etc etc.
In the end it didn't matter, they didn't change their minds. They end up banned, but they still think they are right.
This is how trump is right this moment on Ukraine, tariffs, whatever else, and hes going to bring the world down to its knees believing hes right as the rest of the worlds wastes their time trying to correct him.

Except Trump's lies have a nasty habit of coming back to bite him in the ass. Unfortunately not permanently, and unfortunately not for very long. But they undoubtedly do.

It cost him 2018 and 2020, got him nowhere in 2022 and it could cost the GOP 2026 and whoever the next republican presidential candidate is in 2028.

Because just like the trolls, their only claim to legitimacy is that Trump "won." It doesn't matter if he lies, it doesn't matter if he doesn't know what he's talking about, it doesn't matter if all his prognostications come to not because he's a liar who doesn't know what he's talking. They don't care about that.

It's a team sport for them. They don't care if their players are constantly running up against the refs and getting flagged, they don't care if they're injuring or fouling the other team, they don't care if the coach is a drunk and running around on his wife with a cheerleader, so long as their team still wins.

As always, the best course in "dealing with them" is defeating them politically. There's no use reasoning with them, the only course of action is to render them politically irrelevant.

[Shadowferal]

And there it is - the sell out continues. Trump has 'paused' all military aid to Ukraine.
Expect it to become permanent soon.

It gets "better;"
White House seeks plan for possible Russia sanctions relief,

[thilicen]

The US is now officially a Russian vassal state, what a time to be alive.