Russian invasion of Ukraine

[DarkTZeratul]

Its never a bad time to shit on European inaction. Say what you want abt Trump but he does things. Europe is discussing on potentially doing sanctions on Russia if there is no progress on peace talks. Its doing this instead of actually going ahead with the sanctions and scaling back

This has little to do with anything Trump actually did because he wanted Europe to step up their game, and everything to do with what Trump decided the US was going to stop doing because he's a petty would-be dictator who doesn't give a shit about Ukraine.

[diller]

Its never a bad time to shit on European inaction. Say what you want abt Trump but he does things.

He does things because he basically acts as a dictator at this point, doing things he shouldn't be doing.

[Endus]

Its never a bad time to shit on European inaction. Say what you want abt Trump but he does things.

The single tenet of democracy that makes it the best of all currently known systems for governance is precisely that it takes forever to do anything because everything gets mired in discussions and debates and it takes forever to achieve anything.

Because it takes so much longer to push "bad" legislation, and the flaws in that legislation typically come out in the process, and can be corrected before it's a problem. The same process will seek comparable flaws in "good" legislation, and eventually admit it cannot find any, but that's the price you pay.

The alternative is any other more-autocratic system where there's less debate and discussion and less need for a wide range of eyes on the legislation, and that means bad shit gets passed through into law much more easily.

That's how healthy democracies stay healthy; by slowing everything way the fuck down to a glacial pace. It's only failing democracies that are able to bypass the checks and balances and push legislation out rapidly and without due consideration and review.

You're essentially blaming European democracies for not being as diseased and rotten as American democracy has become.

On top of the lie that Europe has in any way been "inactive".

[NED funded]

The single tenet of democracy that makes it the best of all currently known systems for governance is precisely that it takes forever to do anything because everything gets mired in discussions and debates and it takes forever to achieve anything.

Because it takes so much longer to push "bad" legislation, and the flaws in that legislation typically come out in the process, and can be corrected before it's a problem. The same process will seek comparable flaws in "good" legislation, and eventually admit it cannot find any, but that's the price you pay.

The alternative is any other more-autocratic system where there's less debate and discussion and less need for a wide range of eyes on the legislation, and that means bad shit gets passed through into law much more easily.

That's how healthy democracies stay healthy; by slowing everything way the fuck down to a glacial pace. It's only failing democracies that are able to bypass the checks and balances and push legislation out rapidly and without due consideration and review.

You're essentially blaming European democracies for not being as diseased and rotten as American democracy has become.

On top of the lie that Europe has in any way been "inactive".

Lets say it takes three years to do something wrt Russia Ukraine war. In those three years the war could be over adn the slowness of your action is useless.

[DarkTZeratul]

Lets say it takes three years to do something wrt Russia Ukraine war. In those three years the war could be over adn the slowness of your action is useless.

Perhaps, but literally none of their current actions are because "Trump does things." It's not "Trump convinced us stand up and take charge," it's "oh fuck the US is run by an absolute shitgibbon, and things are going to get monumentally worse unless we take charge."

[Endus]

Lets say it takes three years to do something wrt Russia Ukraine war. In those three years the war could be over adn the slowness of your action is useless.

And? You're ducking the point.

Rapidity of response is less important than quality of response. This is the central reason why democracies have outperformed all other governmental systems; they better ensure quality of response at the necessary expense of rapidity of response.

It's very easy for an autocrat to make a quick, wrong decision. It takes healthy democracies a long time to make wrong decisions, giving them many more opportunities to see that it's a bad idea before moving forward.

An autocrat doing random shit on a whim is not an improvement over slow, methodical bureaucracy.

And I repeat; Europe has been far from "doing nothing". That remains a false claim you tried to squeak in there unnoticed.

[NED funded]

And? You're ducking the point.

Rapidity of response is less important than quality of response. This is the central reason why democracies have outperformed all other governmental systems; they better ensure quality of response at the necessary expense of rapidity of response.

It's very easy for an autocrat to make a quick, wrong decision. It takes healthy democracies a long time to make wrong decisions, giving them many more opportunities to see that it's a bad idea before moving forward.

An autocrat doing random shit on a whim is not an improvement over slow, methodical bureaucracy.

And I repeat; Europe has been far from "doing nothing". That remains a false claim you tried to squeak in there unnoticed.

I have addressed the point. In normal governance I agree. The issue is that you are dealing in an armed conflict where the situation changes by the day. We are 3 years into the war and just NOW is Europe THINKING about the POSSIBILITY of sanctioning nordstream? This is after years of the nordstream pipelines not being functional due to the people that took actual action.

What good does sanctioning nordstream do now? And I will concede all points about time leading to good results (even if I disagree)

[Endus]

I have addressed the point. In normal governance I agree. The issue is that you are dealing in an armed conflict where the situation changes by the day.

That time scale is appropriate for military tactics, not governmental direction.

Particularly when you're talking about countries who are not party to that war.

We are 3 years into the war and just NOW is Europe THINKING about the POSSIBILITY of sanctioning nordstream? This is after years of the nordstream pipelines not being functional due to the people that took actual action.

What good does sanctioning nordstream do now? And I will concede all points about time leading to good results (even if I disagree)

What else is there to sanction? You can't sanction trade (at the national level) you don't have with Russia. The Nordstream project was one of the only direct trade agreements they have, other than strictly financial ones via banking, which are also suggested as targets.

You can't sanction trade routes that don't exist. And like you said; it's been years since Nordstream was even functional; while this may be performative, it still applies pressure by indicating a distaste for ever repairing and re-opening those lines.

[alach]

Heres some more details from yesterday;

Bloomberg reveals Russia's ultimatum demands at Istanbul talks

Details: According to Bloomberg, the Russian delegation at the talks in Istanbul outlined several conditions for the beginning of the peace process. In particular, Moscow demands that Ukraine

-adopt a neutral status, without the presence of foreign troops or weapons of mass destruction on its territory;
-officially renounce claims for reparations from Russia;
-recognise the annexation of Crimea and four other oblasts, even though Russian forces do not fully control them.

Polish PM says he expects "very difficult days" ahead after call with Trump

Tusk noted that Russia has demanded that no US representatives be present at the negotiations and described Russia’s conditions as unacceptable "not only for Ukraine, but for all of us".

He stressed that European politicians will continue working towards peace in Ukraine.

Tusk added that the main task will be to maintain unity between Europe and the United States on this issue.

"We make no secret of the fact that Russia’s position is hard to describe as constructive. There are likely to be very difficult days ahead of us," he said.

Trump does not see Putin as obstacle to peace and criticises Zelenskyy

In response to a direct question from the host about whether he considers Putin the main obstacle to achieving peace, Trump avoided blaming him, instead shifting the focus onto Zelenskyy.

Quote: "Look, I had a real rough session with Zelenskyy because I didn't like what he said, and he was not making it easy. And I always said he doesn't have the cards, and he doesn't have the cards."

Details: Although the host reminded Trump of his post on Truth Social with an appeal to Putin – "Vladimir, STOP" – he did not go on to blame Putin for continuing the war. On the contrary, Trump stressed that in his view, Putin wants talks and is tired of the war.

[Mayhem]

Heres some more details from yesterday;

Bloomberg reveals Russia's ultimatum demands at Istanbul talks


Polish PM says he expects "very difficult days" ahead after call with Trump


Trump does not see Putin as obstacle to peace and criticises Zelenskyy

Say what you want abt Trump but he does things.

Yeah, truly a mastermind and a leader to follow, Europe should act more like Trump.

[alach]

European elections were a nail-biter, but looks like the pro-Europe members managed to clinch a win.
Setting the stage for today we have;
Ukraine war latest: Russia launches record 273-drone attack on Ukraine ahead of planned Trump-Putin call

Which will lead to as CNN refers to it as..
The real battle in the Russia-Ukraine war right now isn’t on the brutal frontlines, but to swing the US president’s changeable opinion

and,
Starmer, Western leaders call for unconditional Ukraine ceasefire ahead of Trump-Putin talks

So trump is giving putin yet another chance. I guess being a no-show then launching 250 drones at Ukraine wasn't enough to convince him of his intentions.
I have to admit, since trump took office, there has been a lot more talk of meetings and deals in the news instead of just the latest weapons shipments. I know which one I prefer. I will not be surprised by the end of the week trump realizes putin isn't interested in making peace and decides to, just like the tariffs, go back to where we were before, and continue weapon deliveries.

[Elenos]

Russia is looking to see what their major offensive this year is going to result in. They may have launched it already or they will soon.

For context https://liveuamap.com/ and other places show that Russia took control of a portion of the highway between Povrosk and the east, leaving the eastern front relying on supplies going through Sloviank by train, it is Ukraine's main supply road to be certain but they spent months building up forces until the mud season ended.

[Mazza]

Russia is looking to see what their major offensive this year is going to result in. They may have launched it already or they will soon.

For context https://liveuamap.com/ and other places show that Russia took control of a portion of the highway between Povrosk and the east, leaving the eastern front relying on supplies going through Sloviank by train, it is Ukraine's main supply road to be certain but they spent months building up forces until the mud season ended.

I dunno, that highway has been in the thick of things all year (Russia actually cut it earlier this year for about a month) and it doesn't seem to have stopped Povrosk defense really. They just barely managed to cut it now before the weekend and then just seem to have stopped.

[Elenos]

I dunno, that highway has been in the thick of things all year (Russia actually cut it earlier this year for about a month) and it doesn't seem to have stopped Povrosk defense really. They just barely managed to cut it now before the weekend and then just seem to have stopped.

It's more about the scale of it, Pokrovsk has a major rail line inside the city itself so it isn't the supplies to the city that are at risk, it's to the east of it.

To be sure Russia did push towards a major crossroads but Ukraine fought hard to throw them out of it, not they've lost a decent chunk of the road.

[Neufab]

Its never a bad time to shit on European inaction. Say what you want abt Trump but he does things. Europe is discussing on potentially doing sanctions on Russia if there is no progress on peace talks. Its doing this instead of actually going ahead with the sanctions and scaling back



These pipelines are inactive btw. Not bc of European action. They are inactive cuz of Russia and the explossion two years ago

They are a joke

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-p...von-der-leyen/

Trump does things about Ukraine? What has he done exactly ?

[alach]

Oh God.
Who wants to take bets on what of Ukraine trump just sold to putin.
This is gonna be rough.

Or I'm wrong, and putin agree to pull back his troops and give up trying to steal land that isn't his. That's possible, right? @Corvus? @PhaelixWW? @Saradin?
Anyone still left here?

[Saradain]

Oh God.
Who wants to take bets on what of Ukraine trump just sold to putin.
This is gonna be rough.

Or I'm wrong, and putin agree to pull back his troops and give up trying to steal land that isn't his. That's possible, right? @Corvus? @PhaelixWW? @Saradin?
Anyone still left here?

Trump is so smart he needs even further convincing of Nazi Russia's intents, drone strikes etc etc not enough for him to understand Putin is toying with him.

[Corvus]

Russia will just push the same demands as last time. Unacceptable to Ukraine and Europe.

[PhaelixWW]

Russia will just push the same demands as last time. Unacceptable to Ukraine and Europe.

I second this.

[ringpriest]

Oh God.
Who wants to take bets on what of Ukraine trump just sold to putin.
This is gonna be rough.

I mean, he probably tried to sell a bunch of Ukraine to Putin. But since it's Trump, you can bet he didn't actually tell anyone but a couple toadies what he was planning, and he's reliably terrible at reading anyone he can't bamboozle or bully. So odds are good whatever deal he pitched is flat-out impossible. And that's before touching on how he's so sold on this own cleverness (despite ample evidence to the contrary, although he is superb at personally wriggling away from disaster with his skin intact) that he may very well be projecting an "I would not give it any mind" from Putin as a wholehearted agreement.