Russian invasion of Ukraine

[diller]

So what's your solution?

Don't give Russia anything.

[Elder Millennial]

Don't give Russia anything.

Sadly, realistically, there will be territorial losses.

Ukraine, with the support of Europe needs to insist on 3 things tho before accepting any territorial concessions.

1. Russia can go fuck its own security guarantees and shove it up their own asses. Ukraine MUST BE immediately allowed to join NATO. A special clause can be written into Ukraine's accession, which would exclude the occupied territories aka the contested territories from Article 5 protections, like how Hawaii is not covered by Article 5. But, if Russia takes another step it will trigger article 5. This or Ukraine must be given nuclear weapons as an alternative.

2. Ukraine joins the EU as well, and Russia gets no say on that.

3. Sanctions relief must be tied to Russia abiding by point 1 and 2 on a decades long time span.

[Kaleredar]

And how, practically, do you propose to do that?



So what's your solution?

Give them as many weapons as possible.

[Saradain]

Sadly, realistically, there will be territorial losses.

Ukraine, with the support of Europe needs to insist on 3 things tho before accepting any territorial concessions.

1. Russia can go fuck its own security guarantees and shove it up their own asses. Ukraine MUST BE immediately allowed to join NATO. A special clause can be written into Ukraine's accession, which would exclude the occupied territories aka the contested territories from Article 5 protections, like how Hawaii is not covered by Article 5. But, if Russia takes another step it will trigger article 5. This or Ukraine must be given nuclear weapons as an alternative.

2. Ukraine joins the EU as well, and Russia gets no say on that.

3. Sanctions relief must be tied to Russia abiding by point 1 and 2 on a decades long time span.

Russian sanctions should last until every piece of stolen land is returned. It is entirely up to Russia to starve and wither until that point. No national security matter, no red line, not one thing stops them from playing nice. If russian people disagree with the everlasting sanctions, execute Putin in public and display his corpse on Red Square.

[Elder Millennial]

Russian sanctions should last until every piece of stolen land is returned. It is entirely up to Russia to starve and wither until that point. No national security matter, no red line, not one thing stops them from playing nice. If russian people disagree with the everlasting sanctions, execute Putin in public and display his corpse on Red Square.

I agree with the sentiment. But, the reality is that Ukraine needs stability. It needs reconstruction, air travel, an end to bloodshed, an environment where the refugees can return home etc.

Ironically that would be the best chance for Ukraine to regain its territories without having to fire a bullet on the long term. As Western Ukraine develops economically, it would fuel discontent and resentment in the occupied territories and fuel a desire to rejoin Ukraine.

[Iphie]

I agree with the sentiment. But, the reality is that Ukraine needs stability. It needs reconstruction, air travel, an end to bloodshed, an environment where the refugees can return home etc.

Ironically that would be the best chance for Ukraine to regain its territories without having to fire a bullet on the long term. As Western Ukraine develops economically, it would fuel discontent and resentment in the occupied territories and fuel a desire to rejoin Ukraine.

Ha! Have you got any idea how russification works? Especially where it concerns bits of lands like this?

[DarkTZeratul]

I agree with the sentiment. But, the reality is that Ukraine needs stability. It needs reconstruction, air travel, an end to bloodshed, an environment where the refugees can return home etc.

Sure, but until the Ukrainians are demanding peace and stability over fighting for their own land, I'm not really gonna give that argument much weight.

[gondrin]

I agree with the sentiment. But, the reality is that Ukraine needs stability. It needs reconstruction, air travel, an end to bloodshed, an environment where the refugees can return home etc.

Ironically that would be the best chance for Ukraine to regain its territories without having to fire a bullet on the long term. As Western Ukraine develops economically, it would fuel discontent and resentment in the occupied territories and fuel a desire to rejoin Ukraine.

The problem with this is, well, with Russia itself. Putin, for the most part, wants Ukraine to be part of Russia as he actively wants to reform the USSR in some manner. He literally states that any territory that is now a sovereign nation that was part of the USSR is an illegitimate territory. Oh, a ceasefire may go on for a month, maybe 2 at the longest but he most definitely will start to attack again.

Because there is nothing that is going to stop him outside of him dying, actual war being brought to Russia itself(and therefor starting another world war) or the people IN Russia revolting and removing Putin by force.

Putin doesn't care if his soldiers die or civilians die. That is the literal cost of what it takes to get what he wants.

[Saradain]

I agree with the sentiment. But, the reality is that Ukraine needs stability. It needs reconstruction, air travel, an end to bloodshed, an environment where the refugees can return home etc.

Ironically that would be the best chance for Ukraine to regain its territories without having to fire a bullet on the long term. As Western Ukraine develops economically, it would fuel discontent and resentment in the occupied territories and fuel a desire to rejoin Ukraine.

Well, Russia is now demanding their own security assurances. Ergo, they want future warmongering have a chance. Russia has not changed, is not changing, will not change.

Their victims across eras are not surprised.

[Corvus]

Ukraine have said that a domestically produced cruise missile, the Flamingo, is now in serial production. Range 3000km+, speed 800-900kph, payload 1000kg. Ground launched, not air launched. All depends on how many they can make as to how effective they can be, but it'll strain russian air defences even more.

As to why pootie is insistent his stooge gets him the lands he has claimed handed over to him without a fight - its because as UK intel points out that at current rates of advance, it would take 4.4 years to actually take them at the cost of another 2 million casualties.

The russian economy can't take that. russia is actually having an unemployment problem now, which pootie is trying to prevent through soviet style tactics which largely prevents businesses from firing people, even if they can't afford them. A lot of businesses are resorting to shortening the working week to 4 days, lowering wages or putting them on unpaid leave. But disposable incomes are down 6%, retail sales down 10% and wages adjusted for inflation down 7.5% in July from a year earlier.

[Fugus]

Sad thing is, all of this could have been avoided had Obama been willing to be more firm when Russia started their crap considering we actually signed an agreement to defend them. Then Putin would have had a weaker start when Trump took office along with US having a stronger stance against Russia by default on that.

Now, I’m not absolving Trump or the GOP or Russia from any of it. But if the Democrats would have just been more aggressive with what they did then, things wouldn’t have been able to escalate as quickly.

As far as now, let Ukraine fight. As I understand it, other NATO members could go “boots on the ground” there if they wanted, it just wouldn’t have the official backing of NATO. Could have the entire rest of NATO but the US go handle things and watch if China, North Korea and Iran wanted to join in to help them against that.

If we weren’t so damn weak willed, this could have been ended on the first month or any time afterwards just by stepping up. Especially after Russias attacks on other nations gave justified cause. We are just cowards afraid of them using Nukes when even they know they won’t survive that consequences of that action.

[Gabriel]

So what's your solution?

It's always been obvious. The West has their glowies pay some rival oligarch to Luigi Putin.

[Dontrike]

Congrats to the Ukrainian soldier that killed two Nazis with a single bullet in a world record breaking shot, which was around 2.5 miles. (There's various pics and videos in the link.)

A UKRAINIAN sniper is believed to have obliterated the world record for the longest confirmed kill shot in history.

The talented gunman reportedly managed to eliminate two Russian soldiers from over two-and-a-half miles (13,123ft) away with a single bullet.

The historic shot was fired on August 14 and came from a 14.5mm Alligator sniper rifle often used by snipers in the Ukraine war.

A bullet burst through a glass window where the troops were positioned before hitting Vladimir Putin's men.

Dramatic footage captured the incredible moment with the sniper seen firing several rounds alongside his spotter before hitting the targets.

The clip shows the distance the bullet travelled before a flash of light is seen as the bullet makes its impact.

Artificial intelligence also played a pivotal role as it worked in tandem with a drone reconnaissance complex to locate the cowering soldiers.

The record-breaking snipe took place on the Pokrovsk–Myrnohrad defensive line which has been valiantly defended by Ukraine’s Donetsk operational group.

Moscow is said to have deployed around 110,000 troops by in the region to try and breach Ukrainian defensive lines.

The Ukrainian military has confirmed the area is still under their control as of Friday.

The mission was carried out by sniper platoon Pryvyd - known as the Ghost unit - which comprises of eight sniper units from Ukraine’s Ground Forces.

Pryvyd units have eliminated nearly 1,000 Russian troops in the region across the past 12 months alone, according to military reports.

he remarkable shot smashed the previous world record which was created by a fellow Ukrainian sniper.

Viacheslav Kovalskyi eliminated a Russian from over 2.3 miles away in 2023.

Prior to that the world record for a long-range sniper kill was 2.19 miles, made by a Canadian special operations sniper in Iraq in 2017.

Ukrainians have become specialist long-range snipers since war broke out in 2022.

As well as the two reported record breaking shots, a third sniper also boasts one of the most impressive feats.

A sniper reportedly took out two Russian troops with a single bullet while shooting five men in five minutes.

The shot was said to have been taken from nearly 4,000ft away and carried out by Ukraine's 3rd Special Purpose Regiment of the Special Operations Forces.

[alach]

So, this deal trump is offering has a pretty easy solution.
Ukraine just has to put it to a vote. Yes, to keep fighting, or no, give up Crimea for whatever would be called a ceasefire.
That is what a proper democracy would do.
And an agreement to not join NATO? That's hilarious. Sure, sign the deal with the two largest world deal-breakers in history with two fingers behind your back and wait for the two 80 year old white dudes to kick it.
Should be interesting to see what happens today. I was watching the European news outlets saying that if trump allows the European leaders to join him and Zelensky in the meeting it would be a positive sign for Ukraine; if he doesn't, then it means putin has control and leverage.

Also, nice news on the cruise missiles. I stand by what I have been saying for years now, another twelve months of Ukrainian innovation and determination and it will russia sueing for peace and NATO begging Ukraine to join.

[Vampiregenesis]

Today's meeting is an obvious trap for Zelensky and I wouldn't be surprised if the European leaders are there to put pressure on Zelensky to accept the deal rather than protect him from Trump because Trump alone can't force Zelensky to submit. The Europeans want to buy time until 2030+ and this can only happen if Ukraine concede for now.

Something similar happened with Greece on 2015 where our prime minister was put on a room with Clinton and a bunch of European leaders to pressure him to accept the third memorandum which he didn't want to accept in the first place after the anti-EU referendum. It was hilarious, they didn't let him leave the room until he accepts the deal and of course he accepted it like the traitor he is. The westerners do these things. If Zelensky refuse to accept the deal and return to Ukraine, I will say he is a real patriot.

[DarkTZeratul]

Today's meeting is an obvious trap for Zelensky and I wouldn't be surprised if the European leaders are there to put pressure on Zelensky to accept the deal rather than protect him from Trump because Trump alone can't force Zelensky to submit. The Europeans want to buy time until 2030+ and this can only happen if Ukraine concede for now.

This doesn't make a lick of sense given that the other European leaders have been openly increasing their support to Ukraine explicitly in light of Trump pulling back his.

[Calfredd]

Today's meeting is an obvious trap for Zelensky and I wouldn't be surprised if the European leaders are there to put pressure on Zelensky to accept the deal rather than protect him from Trump because Trump alone can't force Zelensky to submit. The Europeans want to buy time until 2030+ and this can only happen if Ukraine concede for now.

Something similar happened with Greece on 2015 where our prime minister was put on a room with Clinton and a bunch of European leaders to pressure him to accept the third memorandum which he didn't want to accept in the first place after the anti-EU referendum. It was hilarious, they didn't let him leave the room until he accepts the deal. The westerners do these things and of course he accepted it like the traitor he is. If Zelensky refuse to accept the deal and return to Ukraine, I will say he is a real patriot.

Ever hear of the phrase "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."? No particular reason or anything.

[Vampiregenesis]

This doesn't make a lick of sense given that the other European leaders have been openly increasing their support to Ukraine explicitly in light of Trump pulling back his.

We will see today. My instinct says that they support Trump's deal.

[Huehuecoyotl]

We will see today. My instinct says that they support Trump's deal.

We have over 1700 examples of why your "instinct" isn't worth a great deal. They range from "a bit wrong" to "fucking laughable". I think I'll wait for time to prove you wrong. Again.

[Elder Millennial]

We will see today. My instinct says that they support Trump's deal.

Your instincts on this are worth about fuckall.

They probably support a deal. Just like Zelensky probably wants a deal that is not quite publicly palatable yet. But whatever deal does Zelensky and the EU supports IS NOT TRUMP'S DEAL.

They are there to back Zelensky on his counter proposal.