Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Corvus]

As a reminder, Kharkiv is a Russian-speaker majority city and Putin seems happy to be making it Grozny Mk 2. That should tell you everything you need to know.

[Poopymonster]

The Chinese will likely profess neutrality, call for restraint on all sides and some other platitudes, then they'll proceed to buy up every drop of oil and gas the Russians have at rock bottom prices and then price gouge the ever living shit out of Russia on all the stuff they won't be able to buy from anywhere else.

So Evil Bad Commie China does the Capitalist thing.

[Gaidax]

So Evil Bad Commie China does the Capitalist thing.

Why what, did you think China is communist? Don't let the red flags and stars confuse you.

[Uzkin]

I wonder if the following agreement would appease all parties involved:
(1) Ukraine agrees to become a demilitarized zone.
(2) NATO extends Article 5 to apply to Ukraine for as long as (1) holds (without membership). Ukraine can become EU member but not a NATO member (and since UA would not be a NATO member they themselves would not be bound by Article 5 in case of attacks to other NATO countries).

I think this would be great for UA, kinda ok for Russia, maybe not so ok for NATO though.

[Poopymonster]

Why what, did you think China is communist? Don't let the red flags and stars confuse you.

I was using the stereotype American label. If it's China, it's Evil Bad Communist. Because America.

[Gaidax]

I wonder if the following agreement would appease all parties involved:
(1) Ukraine agrees to become a demilitarized zone.
(2) NATO extends Article 5 to apply to Ukraine for as long as (1) holds (without membership). Ukraine can become EU member but not a NATO member (and since UA would not be a NATO member they themselves would not be bound by Article 5 in case of attacks to other NATO countries).

I think this would be great for UA, kinda ok for Russia, maybe not so ok for NATO though.

1) No way Ukraine will agree to this unless Russia legit turns Kiev and other cities into Aleppo, which is something Putin can't really afford.
2) NATO and US/EU made it plainly clear they do not want to get involved and there is snowball's chance in hell Russia will agree to this.

It's a complete non-starter.

[Elegiac]

I wonder if the following agreement would appease all parties involved:
(1) Ukraine agrees to become a demilitarized zone.
(2) NATO extends Article 5 to apply to Ukraine for as long as (1) holds (without membership). Ukraine can become EU member but not a NATO member (and since UA would not be a NATO member they themselves would not be bound by Article 5 in case of attacks to other NATO countries).

I think this would be great for UA, kinda ok for Russia, maybe not so ok for NATO though.

Or, hear me out: Russia could get the fuck out of Ukraine and let it decide its own foreign policy.

[Mihalik]

I wonder if the following agreement would appease all parties involved:

No.

This is not about the military status of Ukraine.

Putin's Lebensraum speeches and the various other stuff published by Russian state media, sometimes by accident, has made it clear that this is about the subjugation of Ukraine and the recreation of the Russian empire as imagined by Vladimir Putin.

The only compromise that could theoretically be reached here is Ukraine accepting the Russian annexation of Crimea and the Donbass combined with an ironclad promise not to join NATO. This, theoretically, would allow Putin to save face at home and to fulfill his ambitions of territorial gains.

[Strawberry]

Electricity prices in Sweden to spike some 60-70% more because of rising gas/electricity prices and Germany thanks to the conflict and sanctions.
I'm already paying €140/month electricity for a small as 67kvm two room apartment, which is a fucking insanity. So I can expect €200/month electricity only.
I wonder who's sanctioning who here.

[Uzkin]

1) No way Ukraine will agree to this unless Russia legit turns Kiev and other cities into Aleppo, which is something Putin can't really afford.
2) NATO and US/EU made it plainly clear they do not want to get involved and there is snowball's chance in hell Russia will agree to this.

It's a complete non-starter.

Eh, why wouldn't Ukraine agree to (1)?? In this scenario they would gain security from NATO Article 5 without having to have a military of their own. Kinda like the Åland model but on a much larger scale. I know the ppl in Åland love the deal where the mainland Finland guarantees their safety while they themselves don't need to participate in military service.

[draynay]

Electricity prices in Sweden to spike some 60-70% more because of rising gas/electricity prices and Germany thanks to the conflict and sanctions.
I'm already paying €140/month electricity for a small as 67kvm two room apartment, which is a fucking insanity. So I can expect €200/month electricity only.
I wonder who's sanctioning who here.

Let me check whether I feel bad for you.

[Jessicka]

I wonder if the following agreement would appease all parties involved:
(1) Ukraine agrees to become a demilitarized zone.
(2) NATO extends Article 5 to apply to Ukraine for as long as (1) holds (without membership). Ukraine can become EU member but not a NATO member (and since UA would not be a NATO member they themselves would not be bound by Article 5 in case of attacks to other NATO countries).

I think this would be great for UA, kinda ok for Russia, maybe not so ok for NATO though.

How about NATO just continue to send arms and volunteers and kick Russia out a country that doesn’t want them there.

Ukraine can then decide if it wants to join NATO and/or the EU and those organisations have them should that be the case.

[Uzkin]

No.

This is not about the military status of Ukraine.

Putin's Lebensraum speeches and the various other stuff published by Russian state media, sometimes by accident, has made it clear that this is about the subjugation of Ukraine and the recreation of the Russian empire as imagined by Vladimir Putin.

The only compromise that could theoretically be reached here is Ukraine accepting the Russian annexation of Crimea and the Donbass combined with an ironclad promise not to join NATO. This, theoretically, would allow Putin to save face at home and to fulfill his ambitions of territorial gains.

Odd statement. Putin has never publicly claimed that his aims are at territorial gains; he's said exactly the opposite in fact. Therefore, not gaining any territory would not make him lose face at home.

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How about NATO just continue to send arms and volunteers and kick Russia out a country that doesn’t want them there.

Ukraine can then decide if it wants to join NATO and/or the EU and those organisations have them should that be the case.

Sure, NATO/EU/US can continue to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian. I'm just trying to think some agreement that would not result in massive loss of life and property.

[Mihalik]

Electricity prices in Sweden to spike some 60-70% more because of rising gas/electricity prices and Germany thanks to the conflict and sanctions.
I'm already paying €140/month electricity for a small as 67kvm two room apartment, which is a fucking insanity. So I can expect €200/month electricity only.
I wonder who's sanctioning who here.

Move to Russia.

[Slant]

I wonder if the following agreement would appease all parties involved:
(1) Ukraine agrees to become a demilitarized zone.
(2) NATO extends Article 5 to apply to Ukraine for as long as (1) holds (without membership). Ukraine can become EU member but not a NATO member (and since UA would not be a NATO member they themselves would not be bound by Article 5 in case of attacks to other NATO countries).

I think this would be great for UA, kinda ok for Russia, maybe not so ok for NATO though.

No.

Ukraine is a soverign nation and should have all the rights and privileges of a sovereign nation. And if that pisses Russia off, so be it. Russia has no place telling anyone outside Russia what to do. Sorry, but your suggestion is pretty unfeasible.

[Jessicka]

Odd statement. Putin has never publicly claimed that his aims are at territorial gains; he's said exactly the opposite in fact. Therefore, not gaining any territory would not make him lose face at home.

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Sure, NATO/EU/US can continue to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian. I'm just trying to think some agreement that would not result in massive loss of life and property.

Putin wants Ukraine, he’s already breaking international law and committing war crimes, he’s been given inches over Georgia, Crimea, Donbas, and he’s continuing to take miles.

I’m normally a pacifist on this stuff, but sometimes people just want a fight and that’s the end of it.

Any kind of “agreement” would be kicking the can down the road while he regrouped and worked on his next move.

[Slant]

No.

This is not about the military status of Ukraine.

Putin's Lebensraum speeches and the various other stuff published by Russian state media, sometimes by accident, has made it clear that this is about the subjugation of Ukraine and the recreation of the Russian empire as imagined by Vladimir Putin.

The only compromise that could theoretically be reached here is Ukraine accepting the Russian annexation of Crimea and the Donbass combined with an ironclad promise not to join NATO. This, theoretically, would allow Putin to save face at home and to fulfill his ambitions of territorial gains.

Fucking lol. The only compromise that needs to be reached is for Russia to fuck off. Ideally they could sweeten the deal by chopping Putin's head off, but that's up to them. This is an INVASION of a sovereign nation. There is no compromise. Get the fuck out and don't come back.

[Fuiking]

Odd statement. Putin has never publicly claimed that his aims are at territorial gains; he's said exactly the opposite in fact. Therefore, not gaining any territory would not make him lose face at home.

- - - Updated - - -


Sure, NATO/EU/US can continue to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian. I'm just trying to think some agreement that would not result in massive loss of life and property.

He did actually.

[Poopymonster]

Electricity prices in Sweden to spike some 60-70% more because of rising gas/electricity prices and Germany thanks to the conflict and sanctions.
I'm already paying €140/month electricity for a small as 67kvm two room apartment, which is a fucking insanity. So I can expect €200/month electricity only.
I wonder who's sanctioning who here.

Guys. You Ukraine soldiers. Yeah, you who got blown the fuck up too. Everyone get your giant sized balls over here and listen up. It's over. You can surrender to the Russians now, some girl in EU is inconvenienced. She has had enough of your wanting to live and be your own people fucking up their life.

[Mihalik]

Odd statement. Putin has never publicly claimed that his aims are at territorial gains; he's said exactly the opposite in fact. Therefore, not gaining any territory would not make him lose face at home.

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/brave-new-...on-of-ukraine/

“Ukraine is an inalienable part of our own history, culture and spiritual space,” Putin said. “These are our comrades, those dearest to us – not only colleagues, friends and people who once served together, but also relatives, people bound by blood, by family ties.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ats-scrambling

Sure, NATO/EU/US can continue to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian. I'm just trying to think some agreement that would not result in massive loss of life and property.

Ah! Parroting Russian propaganda I see. Why do I even bother?