Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Gaidax]

Eh, why wouldn't Ukraine agree to (1)?? In this scenario they would gain security from NATO Article 5 without having to have a military of their own. Kinda like the Åland model but on a much larger scale. I know the ppl in Åland love the deal where the mainland Finland guarantees their safety while they themselves don't need to participate in military service.

You legit think Ukraine will agree to give up weapons after this? They already gave up nukes back in 94 for promises of "we totes gonna respect your integrity" with US/Russia guarantees no less.

You think they gonna be hoping NATO will help them out militarily next time as non-member, because of some piece of paper?

Come on, bruh.

[Uzkin]

I see no problems in making compromises if it yields the best possible result. Demilitarization+safety would not be a bad deal IMO, in fact it is what the whole world should strive towards.

[XDurionX]

China could try to use their wortless currency (wich they print on demand) into russa as a option of payment for russan people.
Since they cant be sanctioned due to it.

You are aware that EVERY nation's central bank prints money on demand, right?

[Uzkin]

You legit think Ukraine will agree to give up weapons after this? They already gave up nukes back in 94 for promises of "we totes gonna respect your integrity" with US/Russia guarantees no less.

You think they gonna be hoping NATO will help them out militarily next time as non-member, because of some piece of paper?

Come on, bruh.

NATO seems to commit to Article 5 without compromises. Do you think Article 5 is just some piece of paper?

[Gaidax]

Guys. You Ukraine soldiers. Yeah, you who got blown the fuck up too. Everyone get your giant sized balls over here and listen up. It's over. You can surrender to the Russians now, some girl in EU is inconvenienced. She has had enough of your wanting to live and be your own people fucking up their life.

You can jest all you like, but the reality is that NATO/US/EU give more of damn about some girl in EU being inconvenienced than about Ukraine. And don't let politicians words fool you about that part there.

Ukraine is unlucky to be a convenient buffer for both sides in this mess.

[Mihalik]

Fucking lol. The only compromise that needs to be reached is for Russia to fuck off. Ideally they could sweeten the deal by chopping Putin's head off, but that's up to them. This is an INVASION of a sovereign nation. There is no compromise. Get the fuck out and don't come back.

Ideally. Unfortunately the reality is that completely removing the Russians from Ukraine would be next to impossible or the cost in human lives would be absolutely absurd.

Really, a negotiated end is the most likely solution here. It fucking sucks ass...

[Jessicka]

I see no problems in making compromises if it yields the best possible result. Demilitarization+safety would not be a bad deal IMO, in fact it is what the whole world should strive towards.

Well maybe it’s Russia that could do with being demilitarised.

[Gaidax]

NATO seems to commit to Article 5 without compromises. Do you think Article 5 is just some piece of paper?

As long as Ukraine is not a member of NATO - there is no Article 5.

It's that simple. NATO is not about to fight Russia over Ukraine like ever or at the VERY least in the next decade.

[XDurionX]

Electricity prices in Sweden to spike some 60-70% more because of rising gas/electricity prices and Germany thanks to the conflict and sanctions.
I'm already paying €140/month electricity for a small as 67kvm two room apartment, which is a fucking insanity. So I can expect €200/month electricity only.
I wonder who's sanctioning who here.

I'm german. We have the highest prices for electricity in the whole world. And yet, i'd rather pay even more than supporting a shithead fascist autocrat.

[Slant]

Ideally. Unfortunately the reality is that completely removing the Russians from Ukraine would be next to impossible or the cost in human lives would be absolutely absurd.

Really, a negotiated end is the most likely solution here. It fucking sucks ass...

I'm willing to invest Russian lives for this. I see no problem with every Russian soldier dying on the battlefield. Do you? Really?

Is this thread so fucked up that people accept an invasion as a normal thing? "Eh, it's just how it is, just give up half your country, cos.. fuckit, that's how we do it in CoD, you win some you lose some.. next match you'll be better!"

Fucking gamer generation...

[Mihalik]

NATO seems to commit to Article 5 without compromises. Do you think Article 5 is just some piece of paper?

One side lies every fucking time it opens its mouth, breaks every fucking treaty it signed up to, and just invaded a country it has committed to not invading...while saying they aren't actually invading it.

The other side is NATO.

[Uzkin]

As long as Ukraine is not a member of NATO - there is no Article 5.

It's that simple. NATO is not about to fight Russia over Ukraine like ever or at the VERY least in the next decade.

So now you've shifted your argument from "UA will not agree to it" to "NATO will not agree to it". That's fine, it's what I myself said in my first post: might be a bad deal for NATO's interests.

Anyways, I see any kind of relatively peaceful settlement is a repulsive thought to many "westerners" here. Fighting the Russians to the last Ukrainian seems to be a much more pleasing idea. Carry on...

[Corvus]

Navalny has put out a call for daily protests against the war. I expect he will fall out a window shortly.

[Mihalik]

I'm willing to invest Russian lives for this. I see no problem with every Russian soldier dying on the battlefield. Do you? Really?

I don't care about the Russians. (Well, I do, I wish they weren't invading and then they wouldn't be dying). I care about the number of Ukrainians who would have to die to kick out the Russians.

[Jessicka]

Ideally. Unfortunately the reality is that completely removing the Russians from Ukraine would be next to impossible or the cost in human lives would be absolutely absurd.

Really, a negotiated end is the most likely solution here. It fucking sucks ass...

Letting them stay or demilitarisation of Ukraine is literally an open invitation for Russia to go again in a few months.

He didn’t stop at Donbas, he didn’t stop at Crimea, what in the hell makes you think he’ll stop with whatever contrived agreement you can come up with?

The guy is a pathological liar, he does whatever the fuck he wants. And he wants to rebuild the Soviet Union. You think pieces of paper stop him?

[Corvus]

I don't care about the Russians. (Well, I do, I wish they weren't invading and then they wouldn't be dying). I care about the number of Ukrainians who would have to die to kick out the Russians.

Unfortunately, the only way Putin could hold Ukraine would be via massive brutality against the civilian population even if they were to surrender.

[Mihalik]

Anyways, I see any kind of relatively peaceful settlement is a repulsive thought to many "westerners" here. Fighting the Russians to the last Ukrainian seems to be a much more pleasing idea. Carry on...

Keep pushing that Russian propaganda and keep pretending that demilitarization is an option here. IT'S NOT.

[Bugg]

Putin went too far, but he's not a murdering maniac the west makes him out to be. Just because you live in the west doesn't mean you're being fed propaganda. Western propaganda machine is very active.

Cool cool cool.

[Slant]

I don't care about the Russians. (Well, I do, I wish they weren't invading and then they wouldn't be dying). I care about the number of Ukrainians who would have to die to kick out the Russians.

I agree with you there. But I disagree that Ukraine should give up any part of its sovereignity. If you do that, it legitimises Russia's invasion as a normalised way to change the map. We're done with that bullshit. Humanity has done that shit for millenia, it doesn't work, it's shit and nobody needs it. Nobody on the planet in their right mind thinks Crimea is Russia. But now that they bully Ukraine around, you want us to accept it?

So that's how to change everyone's mind? Just bully harder? Nah, that's the wrong message. There's only one way to deal with a bully. And it's not by agreeing to give him even a third of your lunch money.

[Mihalik]

Unfortunately, the only way Putin could hold Ukraine would be via massive brutality against the civilian population even if they were to surrender.

That's why I hope that eventually he would cut his losses and seek some sort of negotiated compromise where he can save face, but Ukraine (or at least 80% of it) could finally break from Russia.

It's a shitty solution, but it's the only viable one I see.