Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Elegiac]

I disagree. My proposition would be more peaceful than yours. If agreement was made, it would allow for the hostilities (and, therefore, casualties) to stop quickly. Whereas your idea cannot realistically actualize until a lot more fighting, killing, and destruction has taken place.

You don't compromise with an arsonist by letting them burn only half the building down.

You don't compromise with a fascist would-be empire builder by letting them annex only half of whichever country they're invading, either.

[Skulltaker]

There you go. That's why my proposition might work. Article 5 is a good safety guarantee.

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Lol. /10chars

Give this man the nobel peace price. He's done it. Just get rid of the Ukrainian military, putting hundreds of thousands out of work over night, and kindly ask Russia to pull out and leave them alone. This should work great. What's your proposition for the Israel/Palastine issue, convert all of Israel to Islam and shake hands at the border?

[Uzkin]

Again for like the 5th fucking time.

VLADIMIR FUCKING PUTIN DOESN'T FUCKING GIVE A SINGLE FLYING FUCK ABOUT YOUR PROPOSITION. THE DEMILITARIZATION OF UKRAINE IS NOT HIS OBJECTIVE. ITS ABOUT EMPIRE BUILDING.

Who cares what the Putin of your narrative thinks? If you've followed the Russian narrative at all you'd know it's based on the assumption that Ukraine is pretty much on the verge of committing a geocide on the Donbass citizens, and Russia is only performing a necessary peacekeeping act which aims to demilitarize Ukraine and prevent NATO infrastructure from expanding towards Russian border. These goals are what have been sold to the Russians for years and years. If Putin suddenly made a 180 and said that lol nope that's not what I'm after, he would get ousted VERY fast by the people. He would HAVE to agree to an agreement that guarantees pretty much all that he's publicly campaigned for.

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Give this man the nobel peace price. He's done it. Just get rid of the Ukrainian military, putting hundreds of thousands out of work over night, and kindly ask Russia to pull out and leave them alone. This should work great. What's your proposition for the Israel/Palastine issue, convert all of Israel to Islam and shake hands at the border?

I see you, too, ignored the point (2) in my proposition.

Edit. Yes, the unemployment of the soldiers would be an issue. Maybe that could be solved (for example, the EU has agreed to massive economic aid anyway). Or maybe it couldn't, doesn't seem like something that would be an overwhelming issue tho.

[Skulltaker]

I see you, too, ignored the point (2) in my proposition.

Probably because it's bullshit.

[Elegiac]

Who cares what the Putin of your narrative thinks? If you've followed the Russian narrative at all you'd know it's based on the assumption that Ukraine is pretty much on the verge of committing a geocide on the Donbass citizens, and Russia is only performing a necessary peacekeeping act which aims to demilitarize Ukraine and prevent NATO infrastructure from expanding towards Russian border. These goals are what have been sold to the Russians for years and years. If Putin suddenly made a 180 and said that lol nope that's not what I'm after, he would get ousted VERY fast by the people. He would HAVE to agree to an agreement that guarantees pretty much all that he's publicly campaigned for.

The point is that "compromising" with such a viewpoint lends it legitimacy.

"Compromise" is a solution for two viewpoints of roughly equal factual and ethical grounds. It is not a solution if one side is blatantly lying; the solution in that case is telling to liar (i.e. Putain) to go and eat a pile of shit.

[Mihalik]

Who cares what the Putin of your narrative thinks? If you've followed the Russian narrative at all you'd know it's based on the assumption that Ukraine is pretty much on the verge of committing a geocide on the Donbass citizens, and Russia is only performing a necessary peacekeeping act which aims to demilitarize Ukraine and prevent NATO infrastructure from expanding towards Russian border. These goals are what have been sold to the Russians for years and years. If Putin suddenly made a 180 and said that lol nope that's not what I'm after, he would get ousted VERY fast by the people. He would HAVE to agree to an agreement that guarantees pretty much all that he's publicly campaigned for.

Putin lies. And he muddles his ideological narrative twice a fucking day.

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/brave-new-...on-of-ukraine/

Sometimes they fuck up and mess up the narrative and say things ahead of schedule. Or sometimes Putin just doesn't give a fuck and says the quiet part out loud.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ats-scrambling

You're clearly another fucking strategic genius and Russia expert here who thinks he some key insight that everyone else fucking missed. Instead you just gobbled up the official Kremlin narrative hook, link and sink.

This is a Russian imperial project, well specifically Putler's imperial ambitions. Everybody knows this, the West, the Ukrainians, most Russians. You just missed the point, or you are maliciously pushing the official Russian state propaganda.

[Corvus]

Russia's Central Bank Governor. Our economy is fucked. Okay, she said she hoped the economy wouldn't come up against an extreme situation, but is has. 1 trillion USD in assets frozen. 50% of foreign currency reserves unable to be accessed. Interest rates more than doubling. Rouble down 30%. Stock market down 40% without even opening. Runs on ATMs. Climbing inflation. All major shipping lines refusing to go to Russia. Airlines not going to Russia. And so on and so on.

And more pain can be inflicted if needed.

[Voidwielder]

Even in the historically pro-Russian region, the Russians are not, in fact, welcomed.

[Barzotti]

Russia's Central Bank Governor. Our economy is fucked. Okay, she said she hoped the economy wouldn't come up against an extreme situation, but is has. 1 trillion USD in assets frozen. 50% of foreign currency reserves unable to be accessed. Interest rates more than doubling. Rouble down 30%. Stock market down 40% without even opening. Runs on ATMs. Climbing inflation. All major shipping lines refusing to go to Russia. Airlines not going to Russia. And so on and so on.

And more pain can be inflicted if needed.

Careful, Gaidax will pop up to tell you that the sanctions are meek and the Russians can last for decades. While Russian economy has been royally fucked in less than one week.

[Makabreska]

Even in the historically pro-Russian region, the Russians are not, in fact, welcomed.

Ye, no shit murloc. Turns out they don't really like it when you enter their region with hostile troops and tanks. Even in the separatist regions all able people moved to west ages ago and only cripples and elders with USSR nostalgia remained.


Apparently Turkish drones arrived in Ukraine.

[Elenos]

The calls for a No-Fly Zone over Ukraine are growing.

But let's be clear it is nothing short of declaring WW3 if the west implements a NFZ over Ukraine. A nuclear war.

[snebb]

Careful, Gaidax will pop up to tell you that the sanctions are meek and the Russians can last for decades. While Russian economy has been royally fucked in less than one week.

Loool. The only thing lasting decades is the totally fucked state the Russian economy is now going to be left in, even if sanctions were to be lifted tomorrow.

[DarkAmbient]

The calls for a No-Fly Zone over Ukraine are growing.

But let's be clear it is nothing short of declaring WW3 if the west implements a NFZ over Ukraine. A nuclear war.

No-fly zone ain't happening. UK and US both firmly opposed, and others aren't going to step up. The collective position is to leave Ukraine to its fate, because it's the least worst option.

[Liftbrul]

The calls for a No-Fly Zone over Ukraine are growing.

But let's be clear it is nothing short of declaring WW3 if the west implements a NFZ over Ukraine. A nuclear war.

At some point the West needs to call Russia's bluff. Russia is quick to wave their dick extensions around but whether or not they're willing to use them is a different matter entirely, and I personally very much doubt they'd be willing to nuke anyone or anything even if NATO shot some worthless Russian junk out of the air.

[Elegiac]

At some point the West needs to call Russia's bluff. Russia is quick to wave their dick extensions around but whether or not they're willing to use them is a different matter entirely, and I personally very much doubt they'd be willing to nuke anyone or anything even if NATO shot some worthless Russian junk out of the air.

I'm inclined to agree.

It's one thing starting a nuclear war in the face of existential threat versus starting one because imperialist ambitions got checked.

[Corvus]

Russian convoy tried to push into Bucha, to the north of Kyiv.

Nothing NSFW, but a whole bunch of burnt out vehicles forming a new roadblock. This is why armoured vehicles don't like urban environments, and why that massive column, which seems mostly to be trucks anyway, is perhaps a little reluctant to try and force their way into the city.

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1498989441154703365

[Gaidax]

At some point the West needs to call Russia's bluff. Russia is quick to wave their dick extensions around but whether or not they're willing to use them is a different matter entirely, and I personally very much doubt they'd be willing to nuke anyone or anything even if NATO shot some worthless Russian junk out of the air.

It's not something to gamble lightly on.

I do think it's bullshit, but the cost for coming out wrong is insane.

[Elenos]

At some point the West needs to call Russia's bluff. Russia is quick to wave their dick extensions around but whether or not they're willing to use them is a different matter entirely, and I personally very much doubt they'd be willing to nuke anyone or anything even if NATO shot some worthless Russian junk out of the air.

At some point you also accept a reality.

NATO does not owe Ukraine a NFZ, it does not owe Ukraine starting a war that could very quickly escalate to nuclear weapons.

The west is being very generous to Ukraine, but we are not at all obligated to fight a war for them.

People say we'd call Putin's bluff. Well here's what a NFZ would do: Either one side backs down and loses an enormous amount of credibility: Putin or NATO, or we reach World War 3.

I do not believe Putin would back down, not now. He's made his decision on the matter.

There are many practical reasons why a NFZ would not work either. From the fact it would require many aircraft stationed in countries near Russia, and it's questionable whether or not those countries would be willing to even allow US jets to fly over their airspace in the first place to enforce a NFZ. Turkey likely wouldn't, nor would Hungary.

So yeah it's a harsh thing to say, it's also a fact. NATO countries did not sign up to defend Ukraine.

[Strawberry]

I'm barely above minimum wage, got 2 kids to look after and already had a tight budget before all this but it's a price I'm willing to pay because at least my country isn't being invaded by a murderous fucking nazi. Just be glad you never had to live through the rationing of world wars or the great depression.

I lived through a war.
Don't bullshit, you'd love lower prices.

[Shadowferal]

At some point the West needs to call Russia's bluff. Russia is quick to wave their dick extensions around but whether or not they're willing to use them is a different matter entirely, and I personally very much doubt they'd be willing to nuke anyone or anything even if NATO shot some worthless Russian junk out of the air.

If there's even a remote chance it's not a bluff, then it's a risk not worth taking.
And the greater risk of escalation into spilling over into a larger conventional war involving NATO nations isn't worth it either.