Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Breccia]

Microsoft is stopping sales of products and services in Russia.

Thrall's balls! An on-topic post I can respond to!

This is a list of companies that are backing away slowly so far. It's probably not even complete, but it's big enough already.

In the seven days since the invasion began:

• Boeing suspended major operations in Moscow, as well as maintenance and technical support for Russian airlines.
• Airbus is halting supply of parts and services to Russian airlines.
• Shell will sever ties with Russian gas giant Gazprom and end its roughly $1 billion financing of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline.
• BP is exiting its nearly 20% stake in Russian oil giant Rosneft, and faces a potential financial hit of as much as $25 billion.
• Exxon Mobil says it will exit Russia oil and gas operations valued at more than $4 billion and cease new investment.
• GM, which sells only about 3,000 cars a year in Russia, says it will suspend exporting vehicles.
• Ford suspended operations.
• BMW stopped shipments and will stop production in Russia.
• Daimler Truck Holdings said it would no longer send supply components to its Russian joint-venture partner.
• Volvo Cars, owned by Chinese conglomerate Zhejiang Geely, halted sales and shipments.
• Renault ceased operations and production at two assembly plants because it can't get parts.
• VW paused delivery of Audis already in Russia so it can adjust car prices to reflect the decline in value of the ruble.
• Harley-Davidson suspended shipments to Russia.
• Adidas suspended its partnership with the Russian Football Union.
• Nike ceased online sales because it can’t guarantee delivery.
• FedEx and UPS suspended shipments.
• Yoox Net-A-Porter Group and Farfetch, luxury e-commerce platforms, are suspending deliveries in Russia.
• Apple has paused product sales and limited services (including Apple Pay), on top of ceasing exports to Russia and restricting features in Apple Maps in Ukraine to safeguard civilian safety.
• Dell stopped selling products.
• Ericsson is suspending deliveries to Russia.
• Walt Disney is pausing film debuts in Russia. Warner Bros., Sony, Paramount and Universal say they won't release films in the country.
• Ikea is closing its Russian stores and pausing all exports and imports in the country and ally Belarus.
• Airbnb said it is "suspending all operations in Russia and Belarus."
• Google suspended all online advertising in Russia.
• Microsoft suspended all new sales of its products and services in Russia.
• Hermès temporarily closed all of its stores in Russia.

Bolded are items I did not see before in these forums.

[Elegiac]

Weren't you from/in Greece...?

Part of the family emigrated from Greece after the war, I'm second generation in Australia - we still maintain a lot of contact and visitation (and citizenship) in Greece.

Basically I'm a bit of an international mongrel, lol; which is why I don't take much stock in the idea of nation-states. Greek by blood, Australian by birth, and a naturalized US citizen - classify me.

[alkyd]

Why is it important to you that Russia not be treated as a fascist state, exactly?

If I answered this question I would have to delve into whataboutism. And people really don't like it here. So I won't answer.

[Easo]

Part of the family emigrated from Greece after the war, I'm second generation in Australia - we still maintain a lot of contact and visitation (and citizenship) in Greece.

Basically I'm a bit of an international mongrel, lol; which is why I don't take much stock in the idea of nation-states. Greek by blood, Australian by birth, and a naturalized US citizen - classify me.

I assume you know the Mr. Worldwide meme

[Elegiac]

If I answered this question I would have to delve into whataboutism.

I.e. you don't have an argument. Good to know.

[Okacz]

There is an authoritarian government and there is a fascist government. These are two different types of government. Russia is simply authoritarian.

Well, that's a huge win for Russia then. Their government might be murderous, warmongering pieces of shit, but according to one opinion at least they aren't fascist. Hope Putin gets a medal for that one. And wow, it's so great to hear that Russia isn't alone in its anti-semitism, this makes it so much better!

Seriously man, the price of a ruble ain't getting much better, you might wanna switch jobs.

[tehdang]

I have already linked Wikipedia excerpt before in this thread but it was pages ago. I'll do it again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

If multiple people are pretending to appeal to authority on what fascism is, the better link is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

It's a slippery enough term to rope in both Stalin and Hitler frequently, provide employment for hundreds if not thousands of academics, and be used by almost every state on earth for their enemies--both in ideology and person. Putin's authoritarian for sure, but if somebody wants to say "not just authoritarian, but also fascist," it's just an invitation to debate the relative merits of culture, economy, and politics in the myriad definitions floating around.

[alkyd]

I.e. you don't have an argument. Good to know.

There would be an argument if your question "Why it is important to you that Russia not be treated as a fascist state?" implied there is something to argue about.

[Elegiac]

I assume you know the Mr. Worldwide meme

Lol.

But yeah - nationality is a tricky subject. There is a very fine line between trying to maintain a distinct cultural or ethnic identity, and embracing policies designed to erase or oppress cultural or ethnic dissent; the fact Putain and his government are so blatant in their revisions of history to try and erase a distinct Ukrainian identity is a massive red flag as to what said government's policies in an occupied Ukraine are likely to be.

That, and I'm automatically skeptical of anyone claiming to be the new Rome/Byzantium because both of those polities were effectively autocratic police states themselves.

[alkyd]

Well, that's a huge win for Russia then. Their government might be murderous, warmongering pieces of shit, but according to one opinion at least they aren't fascist. Hope Putin gets a medal for that one. And wow, it's so great to hear that Russia isn't alone in its anti-semitism, this makes it so much better!

Seriously man, the price of a ruble ain't getting much better, you might wanna switch jobs.

I don't support their authoritarian way of dealing with things at all. And most of the oligarchs who are claimed to be close to Putin are Jewish by the way.

[Breccia]

the price of a ruble ain't getting much better

It has in fact not. While it has crept from 0.0091 to 0.0096 in the last three days, it was 0.013 two weeks ago. While it is possible to blame some of the original crash on a rush away from the market, considering the stock exchange is still closed and more and more businesses back away from the country, it's safe to assume it won't bounce all the way back, indefinitely.

The drop is roughly proportional to the ruble vs. yuan drop, so China's not benefitting from that directly.

[Elegiac]

It has in fact not. While it has crept from 0.0091 to 0.0096 in the last three days, it was 0.013 two weeks ago. While it is possible to blame some of the original crash on a rush away from the market, considering the stock exchange is still closed and more and more businesses back away from the country, it's safe to assume it won't bounce all the way back, indefinitely.

The drop is roughly proportional to the ruble vs. yuan drop, so China's not benefitting from that directly.

What are the chances that the condition for reopening the stock exchange is "Putain and his cronies have wrung every last drop of foreign currency from their citizens and left them with a unit of exchange that will immediately become worthless", do you think?

[Endus]

They are Russians for him. They never stopped to be.

He doesn't get to have an opinion on that. Thinking otherwise is why he's a brutal fascist nationalist dictator.

You're just describing why he's an evil son of a bitch who should be hauled out of power and charged with war crimes at the Hague. Literally supporting the idea of genocide.

[Breccia]

What are the chances that the condition for reopening the stock exchange is "Putain and his cronies have wrung every last drop of foreign currency from their citizens", do you think?

No, they're 100% doing that, but no. I think the stock exchange and foreign currency don't overlap enough.

Everyone knows it's going to crash. I suspect they're setting up blocks for overseas dumpers, then more blocks for insider trading from the Russians who own the companies. EDIT: Phrased that wrong, they're going to promote insider trading and let the oligarchs sell off, because some are more equal than others.

[Endus]

If multiple people are pretending to appeal to authority on what fascism is, the better link is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

It's a slippery enough term to rope in both Stalin and Hitler frequently, provide employment for hundreds if not thousands of academics, and be used by almost every state on earth for their enemies--both in ideology and person. Putin's authoritarian for sure, but if somebody wants to say "not just authoritarian, but also fascist," it's just an invitation to debate the relative merits of culture, economy, and politics in the myriad definitions floating around.

If it meets any of the definitions there (or anywhere), then the label is accurately applied, and all you're doing here is trying to deflect from that fact, that modern Russia is a fascist state.

There isn't any "authority" here on what the term means. It's fuzzy. Which means you have no grounds for dismissing the label, and you don't get to cherry-pick a particular definition that isn't the one being used by whoever you're "contradicting" and claim your definition is "authoritative" and theirs isn't.

It's like me saying "That wall is blue" and you saying "Actually, 'blue' according to Behr's color naming conventions is only this precise RGB value, and similar values have different names, like the wall color which is 'Azure'." That's you being a willfully dishonest pedant to avoid acknowledging that, yes, the wall is fucking blue.

[Elegiac]

No, they're 100% doing that, but no. I think the stock exchange and foreign currency don't overlap enough.

Everyone knows it's going to crash. I suspect they're setting up blocks for overseas dumpers, then more blocks for insider trading from the Russians who own the companies.

Well then a better question is probably how effective said blocks will be, especially when one accounts for the fact that corruption is a national pasttime.

I suppose it's going to be mostly a function of which oligarchs are currently in favor with the regime and which aren't. Either way, it really does seem like we're gonna see a redux of the fiscal looting spree in 1990.

[Iliena]

BBC temporarily suspends work of journalists in Russia
As we've been reporting all day, the lower chamber of the Russian parliament has approved a law that would impose jail sentences of up to 15 years for people spreading "fake" information.

A number of independent outlets in Russia have been shut down, or chosen to stop operating. International outlets the BBC and Deutsche Welle have been restricted.

Now the BBC director-general says the corporation is temporarily suspending the work of all BBC journalists in Russia, in response to the law.

“This legislation appears to criminalise the process of independent journalism," says director general Tim Davie.

"It leaves us no other option than to temporarily suspend the work of all BBC News journalists and their support staff within the Russian Federation while we assess the full implications of this unwelcome development.

“Our BBC News service in Russian will continue to operate from outside Russia.

“The safety of our staff is paramount and we are not prepared to expose them to the risk of criminal prosecution simply for doing their jobs. I’d like to pay tribute to all of them, for their bravery, determination and professionalism.

“We remain committed to making accurate, independent information available to audiences around the world, including the millions of Russians who use our news services.

"Our journalists in Ukraine and around the world will continue to report on the invasion of Ukraine.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Moscow police detain children for laying flowers at Ukrainian embassy
Five children aged seven to 11 with peace signs held for hours while two women face trial on unspecified charges

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ainian-embassy

Not looking good at all.

[Breccia]

Well then a better question is probably how effective said blocks will be.

Very.

Russia is very interested in helping the oligarchs first, and the stock exchange was always rich-leaning in any country. I'm sure there'll be a "test re-opening" only Russians in person will get, followed by a general reopening for the Russian people, with all trades needing to be verified Russian owners. Somehow, overseas non-citizens will be able to buy, as long as they pay in overseas currency.

[Elegiac]

Very.

Russia is very interested in helping the oligarchs first, and the stock exchange was always rich-leaning in any country. I'm sure there'll be a "test re-opening" only Russians in person will get, followed by a general reopening for the Russian people, with all trades needing to be verified Russian owners. Somehow, overseas non-citizens will be able to buy, as long as they pay in overseas currency.

Gonna be very interesting to see how much of a role China plays in acting as an intermediary (re: money laundry) for foreign currency inflows, that's for sure.

[Breccia]

Gonna be very interesting to see how much of a role China plays in acting as an intermediary (re: money laundry) for foreign currency inflows, that's for sure.

China sure thinks there's a fat wad of cash coming their way. They're bragging about how the e-yuan (apparently that's a thing) is peaking against the dollar due to Putin's invasion and the subsequent consequences.