Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Shadowferal]

Russia takes over Baltics and Romania and keeps on rolling until they meet a wall of steel and/or geographical barrier. And that will be the end of that alliance which US has in the last decade regarded as liability after the refusal of it's core allies to support American campaigns while benefiting from all the perks that US military grants.

That's not what I asked about. What would happen to Germany?

[Slant]

For reasons I have previously listed in this thread. No military, almost full energy dependence on an existential enemy of Eastern Europe and absolutely penetrated by foreign influence. That essentially eliminates them as a NATO player in the event of war.

You're talking about a country that essentially gave the starting signal for the most brutal crippling of a foreign economy we've seen so far, right?

What you call unrealiability or "backstabbing" is Germany actually knowing that everyone in the EU is looking to them. When you have that kind of influence, it's typically a good idea not to be the rash asshat rushing to create situations that you can't get out of. Germany used to be that guy, not any more. What you think is indecisiveness is actually deliberation and calm responding.

Or, you can keep thinking in your simplistic terms and hate Germany. Nobody in Germany cares.

[Jessicka]

Russia takes over Baltics and Romania and keeps on rolling until they meet a wall of steel and/or geographical barrier. And that will be the end of that alliance which US has in the last decade regarded as liability after the refusal of it's core allies to support American campaigns while benefiting from all the perks that US military grants.

Europe combined has more troops than the US. The US’s forces are also distributed globally, so while there are a lot of them, only a part of them are based in Europe.

They’re a fantastic central plank, especially logistically and for their air forces to European forces, but contrary to what Trump told you, Europe does have extant military forces. And sizeable chunks of them are already mobilised in the countries you say we won’t defends.

[Voidwielder]

That's not what I asked about. What would happen to Germany?

If/when Russia pushes in to Europe, that will most likely stop there. In regards to their own national security, nukes would be on the table but not for Poland, Baltics, Romania and other NATO members.

[Shadowferal]

If/when Russia pushes in to Europe, that will most likely stop there. In regards to their own national security, nukes would be on the table but not for Poland, Baltics, Romania and other NATO members.

You're not answering the question. What would happen to Germany if it stabs NATO in the back?

[Slant]

Because Germany had the potential to play a major role in NATO and they walked away from it. And it is the country that will be sitting a spitting distance away if/when Russia pushes in Eastern/Central Europe.

Other countries are simply too far away. Germany is the first line of proper defence and power projection and they are unable to fulfil that role. Poles are trying but they can't possibly succeed.

That is actually the nicest thing you have said about Germany so far. You know they did that on purpose, right? Germany was and is a country that absolutely has the ability to start WW3. They have learned their lesson, yes world... you're fucking welcome.

[Voidwielder]

You're talking about a country that essentially gave the starting signal for the most brutal crippling of a foreign economy we've seen so far, right?

We are not even past Week 2 on this war. Have you forgot?

But in this case, it won't be Clinton but whoever is the Right Hand Man to Scholz.

Come autumn, Germans will run to Moscow and work out a deal to remove the more painful sanctions even if Kyiv is reduced to rubble and ash.

[Zoranon]

Europe combined has more troops than the US. The US’s forces are also distributed globally, so while there are a lot of them, only a part of them are based in Europe.

They’re a fantastic central plank, especially logistically and for their air forces to European forces, but contrary to what Trump told you, Europe does have extant military forces. And sizeable chunks of them are already mobilised in the countries you say we won’t defends.

There are only three armies of NATO states in Europe that are worth the name. The ones of Poland, France and UK. The rest is usually very small and woefully underfunded.

But given how poor the Russians are doing, Poles should be able to hold out with US help if it comes to conventional conflict. I would also expect Brits to help. French maybe and Germans almost certainly to offer lots of words but not real help.

[Voidwielder]

That is actually the nicest thing you have said about Germany so far. You know they did that on purpose, right? Germany was and is a country that absolutely has the ability to start WW3. They have learned their lesson, yes world... you're fucking welcome.

That was a reasonable policy up until about 2008.

It's been 14 years since then.

[JohnBrown1917]

Because Germany had the potential to play a major role in NATO and they walked away from it. And it is the country that will be sitting a spitting distance away if/when Russia pushes in Eastern/Central Europe.

Other countries are simply too far away. Germany is the first line of proper defence and power projection and they are unable to fulfil that role. Poles are trying but they can't possibly succeed.

The US has a shitton of bases in Europe, Turkey is on the border of Russia, France and the UK also exist.


Also nukes are still the biggest asset that is preventing WWIII, not Germanies military.

[Poopymonster]

And what do you imagine the consequences of backstabbing NATO would be?

Hai Gaiz, we'll be almost surrounded by now unfriendly countries, our shipping lanes will be fucked, and our only ally will be a couple of countries away. Through aforementioned unfirendlies. WAT CAN GO RONG LOL?

[Voidwielder]

The US has a shitton of bases in Europe, Turkey is on the border of Russia, France and the UK also exist.

The most consequential bases in Europe for US to use as a springboard in to Central and Eastern Europe are in Germany. And do not rely on that. Not for one second.
Turkey is a wildcard and relying on it would be about as smart lighting a cig at a gas stop.

That leaves us with France, which is far away and UK which is also, too far away. And has also seen a downsizing of it's army.

Assume the worst and extrapolate from there. And there is no reality in which NATO succeeds in holding back the Russian advance.

[Slant]

That was a reasonable policy up until about 2008.

It's been 14 years since then.

2008 did not change a thing for Germany. The only reason Ukraine is changing things is Russia, really. See, whatever outrageous thing triggers your emotional response, it's a joke. And you being a bit of a baby not having a full life experience or the ability to think about numbers of WW2 don't realise just how... whiney you sound. As far as Germany is concerned, everything was peachy up until now. A couple hundred dead here or there, tragic sure... but the last time Germany armed up, 6 million Jews died, 20 million Russians, god knows how many million from other countries.

So how about you sit the fuck down and be glad that Germany is exercising a little more restraint this time around. Our present day army is not representative of the industrial capability to ramp up an army that would have you tremble in fear. We know we can do it, because we've done it twice. And no amount of whining, insulting or threatening from you is going to impress anyone here into thinking we have to do anything. What Germany has to do is not start another world war. That's our primary job.

And if you think that's us being pussies, I and every other German is fine with that, too. It's not like we haven't been given shit alternatingly for being too militant or not militant enough in the past 80 years. So you go right ahead, hate some more on Germany.

As they say here, was juckt's die deutsche Eiche, wenn der Eber sich an ihr reibt...

[Shadowferal]

Hai Gaiz, we'll be almost surrounded by now unfriendly countries, our shipping lanes will fucked, and our only ally will be a couple of countries away. Through aforementioned unfirendlies. WAT CAN GO RONG LOL?

Yeah...and probably worse off economically than Russia will be after all that's said done..
All things considered I think Germany wants to be what we all want to be; the heroes of the narrative.

[Voidwielder]

Just so you understand the absolute state of the German military. They will not be able to unfuck it in any meaningful way for at least this entire decade and you can absolute bet on those bought and paid bad actors in the Bundestag.

[Shadowferal]

Assume the worst and extrapolate from there. And there is no reality in which NATO succeeds in holding back the Russian advance.

So...you're another version of a Russian troll...interesting.

[dextersmith]

Well, it happend now... so how you think Russia is able to hold even one metre of this is beyond me. That's Russian propaganda speaking. If Russia doesn't win this weekend and they really run out of supplies, they're fucked. Meanwhile Ukraine's outside aid is just beginning to ramp up. Every day their supplies are getting bolstered, while Russia is still walking around with a jerry can trying to get anyone to sell them gas. In the Ukraine. :P

Why is this weekend so crucial?

[Slant]

Yeah...and probably worse off economically than Russia will be after all that's said done..
All things considered I think Germany wants to be what we all want to be; the heroes of the narrative.

What we really want is for everyone to unfuck themselves so we can continue trading with everyone. We do not need to be the hero of any story, as far as we're concerned, there is no hero in this story. War is shit and we're once again taking in refugees because the world is this fucking stupid.

[Voidwielder]

So...you're another version of a Russian troll...interesting.

Have the events of the recent weeks not shown you to assume the worst? Really?

[Slant]

Why is this weekend so crucial?

They say Russian supplies should last until the weekend. Before they have to basically walk home like Napoleon did. An army is a monster that eats a lot of food, gas and the likes... and Ukraine is smartly attacking the supply lines.