Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Barzotti]

Oh, does it only count when it comes from Putin?

And the irony is pretty rich coming from people constantly spewing "but but but USA!"

A majority of Western posters seem to have drunk the "UKRAINE STR0NK" Kool-aid.

It is understandable - they have put up a heroic stand and they keep struggling against incredible odds. But I think taking their victory for granted is foolish. And condemning everyone not completely convinced of Righteous Victory is also wrong. If anything, it is not the Western way. Various outcomes have been offered ranging from visions of Russian domination to Ukrainian glory. Either of those and anything in between may yet come to pass, so do not hound out anyone for being skeptical of your vision of victory.

Absolutely no one here said that Ukraine was winning. We are only pointing jabs at the sheer incompetency of the Russian army. That's a pretty poor strawman.

[Belize]

A majority of Western posters seem to have drunk the "UKRAINE STR0NK" Kool-aid.

It is understandable - they have put up a heroic stand and they keep struggling against incredible odds. But I think taking their victory for granted is foolish. And condemning everyone not completely convinced of Righteous Victory is also wrong. If anything, it is not the Western way. Various outcomes have been offered ranging from visions of Russian domination to Ukrainian glory. Either of those and anything in between may yet come to pass, so do not hound out anyone for being skeptical of your vision of victory.

IMO it's less about "Ukraine stronk" and more about Russia effectively having no path to any sort of lasting victory. The longer they stay stuck in the mud there, the less bargaining chips they have at the negotiation table. Not that they have a lot since their demands are frankly ridiculous.

I mean, I guess they can level the entire country and population, but like, that's not really "winning" is it?

[Shadowferal]

A majority of Western posters seem to have drunk the "UKRAINE STR0NK" Kool-aid. It is understandable - they have put up a heroic stand and they keep struggling against incredible odds. But I think taking their victory for granted is foolish. And condemning everyone not completely convinced of Righteous Victory is also wrong. If anything, it is not the Western way. Various outcomes have been offered ranging from visions of Russian domination to Ukrainian glory. Either of those and anything in between may yet come to pass, so do not hound out anyone for being skeptical of your vision of victory.

Fair points.
Western belief..or perhaps better to say, what we want to believe is "Right makes might." Even Putin initially tried selling that point by claiming "denazification"

[Cynep]

A majority of Western posters seem to have drunk the "UKRAINE STR0NK" Kool-aid.

I'm not a Western poster, and my understanding is rather "UKRAINE SURVIVES". I don't have a collection of Ukrainian folk culture ready to show you, but resistance and survival is what their song and poetry is about. Ukraine needs to outlast, not conquer Russia, and they're psychologically equipped to do that - unless the West forces them into new Minsk accords instead of pushing Russia into insolvency.

[Flarelaine]

Is this satire? Whos saying what you said was said?

I am.

The open discussion that has characterised the thread is slipping towards a state where simply being not utterly convinced of Ukrainian victory is wrongthink.

[Barzotti]

I am.

The open discussion that has characterised the thread is slipping towards a state where simply being not utterly convinced of Ukrainian victory is wrongthink.

You really should buy a new pair of glasses, mate. No one here is saying that we are anything close to a Ukrainian victory.

[Daymanmb]

I am.

The open discussion that has characterised the thread is slipping towards a state where simply being not utterly convinced of Ukrainian victory is wrongthink.

Oh, mystery solved

I think, now this is just me personally, but I think you dont have a correct read of the room, to put it lightly..

[Mekh]

I am.

The open discussion that has characterised the thread is slipping towards a state where simply being not utterly convinced of Ukrainian victory is wrongthink.

Oh god, you gonna be the next Thwart?

[Shadowferal]

The longer they stay stuck in the mud there, the less bargaining chips they have at the negotiation table.

When certain of the Ukraine population comes out...not to fight, but to feed starving Russian soldiers, that sends a message.

[Mihalik]

Either of those and anything in between may yet come to pass, so do not hound out anyone for being skeptical of your vision of victory.

I don't think anyone is being hounded for having a realistic take on the situation.

The Ukrainians are facing impossible and bloody odds, especially as the Russia are steadily inching towards "Fuck it, let's do genocide", and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone sane who would disagree with that.

The problem is with parroting defeatist propaganda, with accepting Russian narratives etc.

A determining factor in this conflict is one of morale, it's the main reason why the Ukrainians held out as long as they have, and if there's a way for them to somehow "win", what will get them there is that morale.

So calling out people who simultaneously claim to support Ukraine for also essentially doing the Kremlin's psy ops free of charge is a natural reaction.

Then there are those who literally do the whole "free speech" thing to do nothing but peddles lies and justify war, war crimes and something that's increasingly starting to look like genocide. Calling a liar a liar (after countless lies) is very much within the bounds of reasonable discourse.

A genocidal war of aggression is a genocidal war of aggression calling it anything else is not pluralism, it's bullshit. The two are distinctly different things.

[Flarelaine]

You really should buy a new pair of glasses, mate. No one here is saying that we are anything close to a Ukrainian victory.

Oh, mystery solved

I think, now this is just me personally, but I think you dont have a correct read of the room, to put it lightly..

Possibly. I have just offered my reading as an opinion. But there _have_ been disparaging comments aimed at posters (@Easo, especially) for worrying about the efficiency of the sanctions and the arguably mixed outcomes they will produce. I thought I'd ask everyone to consider this angle for a moment before things deteriorate. I'd love to be wrong, actually.

[Daymanmb]

But there _have_ been disparaging comments aimed at posters (@Easo, especially) for worrying about the efficiency of the sanctions and the arguably mixed outcomes they will produce.

So not only did that illicit a wide sweeping, general post about "Western posters drinking cool aid", it also intrinsically means that the tone of the thread is "slipping towards a state where simply being not utterly convinced of Ukrainian victory is wrongthink."... I cant do anything here, but scratch my head...

Meanwhile, you let posters, like the one below me, say whatever batshit things they feel like.

[Shalcker]

How do you explain the fact that Russians couldn't so far make inroads into Ukrainian nationalist territories, and the only cities being destroyed by Russians are those with large Russian populations in them?

Busy destroying army that shelled your Donetsk and taking Mariupol.

There is no rush, with destroyed fuel depots every Ukrainian army movement makes their logistics worse.

[Flarelaine]

So not only did that illicit a wide sweeping, general post about "Western posters drinking cool aid", it also intrinsically means that the tone of the thread is "slipping towards a state where simply being not utterly convinced of Ukrainian victory is wrongthink."... I cant do anything here, but scratch my head...

I try to convey how I feel about the tone lately.

[XDurionX]

A majority of Western posters seem to have drunk the "UKRAINE STR0NK" Kool-aid.

It is understandable - they have put up a heroic stand and they keep struggling against incredible odds. But I think taking their victory for granted is foolish. And condemning everyone not completely convinced of Righteous Victory is also wrong. If anything, it is not the Western way. Various outcomes have been offered ranging from visions of Russian domination to Ukrainian glory. Either of those and anything in between may yet come to pass, so do not hound out anyone for being skeptical of your vision of victory.

Nobody says the Ukraine can achieve a military victory in any way. But russia will pay a lot more than they can afford.

[Daymanmb]

I try to convey how I feel about the tone lately.

Its entirely about "how you feel". Seriously?

[Elegiac]

I am.

The open discussion that has characterised the thread is slipping towards a state where simply being not utterly convinced of Ukrainian victory is wrongthink.

It really isn't. Stop strawmanning.

[Kaleredar]

Possibly. I have just offered my reading as an opinion. But there _have_ been disparaging comments aimed at posters (@Easo, especially) for worrying about the efficiency of the sanctions and the arguably mixed outcomes they will produce. I thought I'd ask everyone to consider this angle for a moment before things deteriorate. I'd love to be wrong, actually.

Things “deteriorated” the moment Russia invaded Ukraine.

I don’t necessary think that anyone believes Ukraine is going to completely flip this. But it’s clear Russia has been majorly knocked on the backfoot. If Ukraine can’t win in wholesale removing Russia from within its borders (and let’s be clear, any sort of “appeasement” simply means that Russia does this again in a few years actually prepared) then at least they can drag Russia down with them. And that’s working so far. There’s no “positive outcome” for Russia here, in the long run, on the trajectory they’re on.

Saying Ukraine needs to surrender or cede to whatever Russia wants out of fear that they’ll kill people in Ukraine just means they’ll be more prepared to kill more people later, after they’ve had a chance to actually coordinate a real assault and find some way to fortify their economy not to hilariously implode.

[Verdugo]

A majority of Western posters seem to have drunk the "UKRAINE STR0NK" Kool-aid.

It is understandable - they have put up a heroic stand and they keep struggling against incredible odds. But I think taking their victory for granted is foolish. And condemning everyone not completely convinced of Righteous Victory is also wrong. If anything, it is not the Western way. Various outcomes have been offered ranging from visions of Russian domination to Ukrainian glory. Either of those and anything in between may yet come to pass, so do not hound out anyone for being skeptical of your vision of victory.

Hey, how about doing your job and banning paid propaganda trolls.

[Poopymonster]

According to Russian sources...which are a beacon of truth...to you.

- - - Updated - - -

That, and calling it an "invasion."

It's Gilligan's Gulag. Meant to be a weekend excursion. Now they're stuck there.