1. #921
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    vladimir putin...?
    Can you give his quote to that end?

  2. #922
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Maybe you can explain to me, how should "normal country" react to openly hostile military alliance trying to gain foothold in yet another country near their borders, ignoring all diplomatic efforts?
    You didn't answer the question: how does Russia behave when it actually threatens countries?

    As for an openly hostile country trying to gain foothold in yet another part of the country - that describes how Russia according to you is non-threatening Ukraine, similarly as Russia non-invaded Crimea, and non-helped the separatist that have taken over other parts of Ukraine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    This is what happens when people think Michael Bay's "Pearl Harbor" is a historical documentary and not a piece of historical fiction made into a summer blockbuster with lots of explosions to sell a really shitty romance story to dudes.
    I must have missed that part of the movie; but I still don't think it was as good as his Bad Boys and today's event of course means that I have to mention his work on Bat out of Hell II.

  3. #923
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    I must have missed that part of the movie; but I still don't think it was as good as his Bad Boys and today's event of course means that I have to mention his work on Bat out of Hell II.
    I don't know if it was in that movie, but it was more pointing out that US conservatives usually have issues separating fiction from fact when it comes to movies. And that movie includes scenes in which the Japanese bombers bombed hospitals to crank up the emotions for the viewers - something which never actually happened as they only targeted military hardware/locations, not civilian.

  4. #924
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    Oh, btw, we need some humour here - Putin's castle, Round 2, with 500 photos this time, let's go. I am sure the local residents will blah blah something about CGI and/or Putin deserves that castle:
    When we're talking about the top 5 most powerful people in the world with the most responsibility it basically is okay for them to live in whichever environment is the most conducive for them, even if it's a castle. For example, I don't want my leader(Joe Biden) to be living in some run-down shack. What I want is for everything to be optimal for him so that he can purely focus on national problem solving.

    Now obviously it's not morally okay to use political power to gain personal property but the thing is after a certain amount of time has passed it doesn't make sense to care about it anymore.
    So do the people who helped produced this video have to be outside of Russia in order produce this or can they safely stay in Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    some slight edits and you're describing russia
    You just said that about this:
    If anything, "freedom of thought, speech and communication" has dramatically decreased since 2014. Anyone that dares to stand up to nationalists is silenced, politicians are killed, laws that turn Russian minority into second class citizens are created.
    Earlier you were arguing that Russia is self-critical.
    Last edited by PC2; 2022-01-21 at 11:06 PM.

  5. #925
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Maybe you can explain to me, how should "normal country" react to openly hostile military alliance trying to gain foothold in yet another country near their borders, ignoring all diplomatic efforts?
    Openly hostile?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  6. #926
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    You didn't answer the question: how does Russia behave when it actually threatens countries?
    You could look at Turkey example (aftermath).

    As for an openly hostile country trying to gain foothold in yet another part of the country - that describes how Russia according to you is non-threatening Ukraine, similarly as Russia non-invaded Crimea, and non-helped the separatist that have taken over other parts of Ukraine.
    Even so, how should "normal country" deal with it? What real-world example should Russia emulate?
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2022-01-21 at 10:14 PM.

  7. #927
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    You could look at Turkey example (aftermath).
    So, Russia violate the territory of a neighbor and threaten when they respond?

    However, to clarify: how does Russia behave when it actually threatens countries militarily?

  8. #928
    seeing putin's palace leaks today pissed me off so much. he's a rich evil dictator swindling his own people and is trying to occupy ukraine solely to save face

  9. #929
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    So, Russia violate the territory of a neighbor and threaten when they respond?
    Russia performs mission in an friendly country at request of local government and had plane shot down by NATO member - while remaining on Syrian territory the whole time (by Russian claims).

    You can make easy parallels with Ukraine and NATO posturing there.

    However, to clarify: how does Russia behave when it actually threatens countries militarily?
    It was military threat as well:
    A cruiser has been despatched to help bolster air defences around the Russian base.

    The sophisticated S400 anti aircraft system is also being deployed and Russian planes will now be protected on bombing raids by fighter jets.

    The message to Turkey and its allies is clear: don't dare try it again.


    Turks haven't flown their planes anywhere into Syria for quite a while in fear of retaliation.

    It was full-spectrum response - military, diplomatic, and economic.


    ---
    Now, can you finally answer the question - which example should Russia emulate in dealing with hostile alliances?

    Maybe Turkish?
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2022-01-21 at 10:49 PM.

  10. #930
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    seeing putin's palace leaks today pissed me off so much. he's a rich evil dictator swindling his own people and is trying to occupy ukraine solely to save face
    Well he has done unethical stuff but it's not the end of the world if Putin has accrued $70 billion, which is what Google says. As long as he doesn't take wealth out of Russia and as long as he pays taxes on his income/wealth then it doesn't actually matter that much. Potentially it could be even better for Putin to have that $70 billion rather than the public because it's possible that Putin is better at capital allocation than the average person.

    If he takes a lot wealth out of Russia, then yeah, in that case he is swindling them big-time.
    Last edited by PC2; 2022-01-21 at 11:34 PM.

  11. #931
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    Well he has done unethical stuff
    he's murdered millions. that's not "unethical," that's demonic.

  12. #932
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    he's murdered millions. that's not "unethical," that's demonic.
    He's murdered millions of civilians? I've not heard of anything like that, maybe hundreds of journalists or whatever, but not millions...

    If you're referring to the amount of people the Russian military has killed then I already explained why that doesn't make sense earlier in the thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    It's only murder if they don't care about killing civilians and minimizing collateral damage. Military personnel or combatants consent to violence so that's not really murder.
    Last edited by PC2; 2022-01-22 at 12:10 AM.

  13. #933
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    He's murdered millions of civilians? I've not heard of anything like that, maybe hundreds of journalists or whatever, but not millions...
    why yes I was considering the murders by proxy, but you lessening it to several hundred by his personal hand is not convincing at all to be fair.

    "He's only murdered several hundreds of journalists." That's awful.

    And now with his readied conquest of Ukraine, he's gonna have several thousand more to his name all in the name of power for a decadent 69 man who already lives in a multi billion-dollar palace.

  14. #934
    Old God AntiFascistVoter's Avatar
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    Well here's where we are- Russia's pissed off people so much that the UK's promoting some kind of new alliance with Poland and Ukraine. It's like they're making a little Triple Entente.

    Британія оголосила про створення нового альянсу з Польщею та Україною


  15. #935
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    Well here's where we are- Russia's pissed off people so much that the UK's promoting some kind of new alliance with Poland and Ukraine. It's like they're making a little Triple Entente.

    Британія оголосила про створення нового альянсу з Польщею та Україною

    please dont interrupt pc2 and yuppie, we are witnessing a true meeting of minds here

  16. #936
    This is probably a lot more about gas than people realise. Russia right now has a lot of leverage over Europe as the only real source of gas.

    If only Europe were able to develop another source, like, say, Ukraine. Gas had been found in Ukraine but not yet developed. If it were Russia would loose all leverage over Europe plus a big chunk of her income. And Putin can't be having that. Destabilising Ukraine stops investment and stops him loosing power.

  17. #937
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    This is probably a lot more about gas than people realise. Russia right now has a lot of leverage over Europe as the only real source of gas.

    If only Europe were able to develop another source, like, say, Ukraine. Gas had been found in Ukraine but not yet developed. If it were Russia would loose all leverage over Europe plus a big chunk of her income. And Putin can't be having that. Destabilising Ukraine stops investment and stops him loosing power.
    destabilize a country just for one man's interests? Evil.

  18. #938
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Yeah, Trump was pretty awful.
    this has nothing to do with Trump. It's all about Putin's last stand to take Ukraine. When we question the "why" though, all we see is an evil dictator looking for nothing but to expand his own power at the expense of everyone else.

  19. #939
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    destabilize a country just for one man's interests? Evil.
    Wealth or power tends to have a sloshing effect though, so even if Putin as an individual somehow received all the benefits of controlling Ukraine it would eventually still help Russia more broadly speaking.

    And yeah it's evil to gain things by military might rather than consensual interactions, but at the same time you gotta respect Russia and China because they're not wimps like us in the West.

  20. #940
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    And yeah it's evil to gain things by military might rather than consensual interactions, but at the same time you gotta respect Russia and China because they're not wimps like us in the West.
    any time I have advocated for the US to exercise the full weight of its military might upon evil dictators and Islamic terrorists, as well as advocating for Joe Biden to toughen up, I have been rebuked or condemned as a mere promoter for "needless" violence.

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