Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Poopymonster]

Pretty much this their original plan was coercion they expected to be welcomed as liberator now they are going full fear and death.

That failed, so they're gonna try to beat them into the ground until the surrender. If making people into pieces helps them achieve that goal, it's an option. Don't get me wrong, targeting civilians is vile from an emotional standpoint. Logically? It's a sound tactic, and more importantly it's an effective tactic in the past. They just misjudged their targets. Horribly.

[Draco-Onis]

That failed, so they're gonna try to beat them into the ground until the surrender. If making people into pieces helps them achieve that goal, it's an option. Don't get me wrong, targeting civilians is vile from an emotional standpoint. Logically? It's a sound tactic, and more importantly it's an effective tactic in most cases. They just misjudged their targets. Horribly.

Agreed and they aren't even using new tactics they are doing the same thing they did in Syria in Ukraine which doesn't bode well for the civilian population.

[Daymanmb]

Logical yes. If you are trying to cow an opposing force, targeting civilians makes sense. You cow some, remove others, and those who live and are full of vigor are a much smaller group than pre-bombing. Reasonable depends on your personal values.

Yes, but the definition of rational isnt just if its logical. The question is if it's logical and reasonable.

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Seems you too are unable to read. Do you two think random shouting of emotions are arguments or discussions? We did not for a moment say Putler is good, or excuse his deeds. We said something entirely different.

God damn internet madness.

Asking a question is "random shouting of emotions"? I think you need a break, homie. Youre cracking..

[Strange One]

*You need an iq above 100 to respond to this poster*

PC2 cried about this, hence the infraction, PC2 hates freedom of speech.

[Afrospinach]

You're hitting the mark.
To me, the essence of evil has always been insane.

Evil is a moral stance, sanity is a rationality stance.

Putin has an objective, he is not insane. He is prepared to do terrible things to achieve that. That is what makes him immoral.

He might be paranoid which you could argue is on the crazy scale but he is not a crazy person.

From a tactical perspective it can be incredibly difficult to weed out combatants in an urban environment without significant danger. To the point where you might airstrike a building to rid yourself of a sniper. I have never seen anything to corroborate this but Jeremy Clarkson did a documentary series on 5 inventions that changed the world, one of them being the gun and in particular, the AK-47. A little tidbit that was given by an army officer is that in order to take a medium sized fortified house room by room in an urban environment they work off 20-30 casualties per building. That is how you get to "blowing up civilian buildings" as a rational action.

[jonnysensible]

Where did I say it wasn't bad? I am saying he isn't irrational.

ofcourse he is irrational. You can see that by the FSB arrests today.

1 man personalist regimes like Russia and Putin always end up irrational. He and Russia have become completely dysfunctional.

Personalist power like Putins (or Jong un's etc) relies on security services to maintain power. over time the inner circle of security advisors become more hawkish, irrational and belligerent. They are unable to challenge the ruler (putin) and can only tell him what he wants to hear. This leads to overconfidence and irrational choices because the information is bad. Putin arrested the FSB lads because they lied to him and hes now thrashing around but he must also know that the system he created would produce these yes men.

This isn't unique to personalist regimes but over time its guaranteed to happen to them because its baked in from the start.

The war was irrational, and anything after that is a continuation of irrational choices.

[Omians]

one of the people that pops up on my Facebook feed Linked this video before it got Masked for being false information
one of the heavy cool-aid drinker types

https://www.facebook.com/1110263350/...3526425710363/

its set to Global so anyone can see it.


feels like 2 different videos mashed together. a guy infront of a green screen and the fake body bags in the back

[Daymanmb]

ofcourse he is irrational. You can see that by the FSB arrests today.

The war was irrational, and anything after that is a continuation of irrational choices.

Couldn't agree more.

[Poopymonster]

Yes, but the definition of rational isnt just if its logical. The question is if it's logical and reasonable.

To Putin, it was probably was reasonable. Still horrific and vile, but to the man who gave the order, it was logical and reasonable. The normal "rules of warfare" tend to be tossed aside by someone who will do whatever it takes to win. Even worse if it's because they believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt, they are right.

[Shadowferal]

Evil is a moral stance, sanity is a rationality stance. Putin has an objective, he is not insane. He is prepared to do terrible things to achieve that. That is what makes him immoral. .

immorality and evil is kinda grading on a curve.
A reason to commit mass murder isn't based upon reasoning.
Refer to the reasoning behind the objective.

[Draco-Onis]

ofcourse he is irrational. You can see that by the FSB arrests today.

1 man personalist regimes like Russia and Putin always end up irrational. He and Russia have become completely dysfunctional.

Personalist power like Putins (or Jong un's etc) relies on security services to maintain power. over time the inner circle of security advisors become more hawkish, irrational and belligerent. They are unable to challenge the ruler (putin) and can only tell him what he wants to hear. This leads to overconfidence and irrational choices because the information is bad. Putin arrested the FSB lads because they lied to him and hes now thrashing around but he must also know that the system he created would produce these yes men.

This isn't unique to personalist regimes but over time its guaranteed to happen to them because its baked in from the start.

The war was irrational, and anything after that is a continuation of irrational choices.

Putin sees NATO expansion as a threat, alliance has taken some actions that give the idea that it's not purely defense. Russia was given verbal assurances that NATO would not expand to their borders, he fears being surrounded from all sides by the west. Let's go into his move to go into Ukraine, the international community had a history of being weak when it comes to Russia they took Crimea, Biden even made the "small incursion" comment and they have Europe by the balls with oil.

When you look at Ukraine Zelensky was not popular, he had been waging a hot war for 8 years now. I mean I can go on his thought process seems pretty straight forward, I agree with you that he and Russia has become dysfunctional as he did not understand the capabilities, logistics and how far he could push it and that's the result of the cult of personality.

[Edge-]

one of the people that pops up on my Facebook feed Linked this video before it got Masked for being false information
one of the heavy cool-aid drinker types

https://www.facebook.com/1110263350/...3526425710363/

its set to Global so anyone can see it.


feels like 2 different videos mashed together. a guy infront of a green screen and the fake body bags in the back

Man it's easy to overlay fake audio when there's a mask, but it's obvious he's not even saying the shit in the video that is being pumped through the audio since nothing in his face matches it.

Fuck mean, the boomer generation needs to get the fuck off the internet.

[Daymanmb]

To Putin, it was probably was reasonable.

Deciding if something is rational or not, is not often left up the perpetrator of the actions in question. Often, when we gauge what is rational, we contrast it against a reasonable person, as in, "what would a reasonable person do".

Do you think a reasonable person would lie about reasons for invading a sovereign nation, bringing upon those innocent people death and destruction?

[PC2]

ofcourse he is irrational. You can see that by the FSB arrests today.

1 man personalist regimes like Russia and Putin always end up irrational. He and Russia have become completely dysfunctional.

Personalist power like Putins (or Jong un's etc) relies on security services to maintain power. over time the inner circle of security advisors become more hawkish, irrational and belligerent. They are unable to challenge the ruler (putin) and can only tell him what he wants to hear. This leads to overconfidence and irrational choices because the information is bad. Putin arrested the FSB lads because they lied to him and hes now thrashing around but he must also know that the system he created would produce these yes men.

This isn't unique to personalist regimes but over time its guaranteed to happen to them because its baked in from the start.

The war was irrational, and anything after that is a continuation of irrational choices.

The war serves Putin's interest though because Ukraine was moving away from Russia and towards Western integration, until the invasion. Why is that illogical or irrational from the perspective of an authoritarian Russian leader? If Russia lost Ukraine it would be extremely embarrassing for Putin and it would de-legitimize him in the eyes of Russian citizens who want to have a strong man leader.

[jonnysensible]

Putin sees NATO expansion as a threat, alliance has taken some actions that give the idea that it's not purely defense. Russia was given verbal assurances that NATO would not expand to their borders, he fears being surrounded from all sides by the west. Let's go into his move to go into Ukraine, the international community had a history of being weak when it comes to Russia they took Crimea, Biden even made the "small incursion" comment and they have Europe by the balls with oil.

When you look at Ukraine Zelensky was not popular

I've addressed that nato bullshit point already

As for the bolded he got 73.22% of the popular vote in the last election in 2019

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The war serves Putin's interest though because Ukraine was moving away from Russia and towards Western integration, until the invasion. Why is that illogical or irrational from the perspective of an authoritarian Russian leader? If Russia lost Ukraine it would be extremely embarrassing for Putin and it would de-legitimize him in the eyes of Russian citizens who want to have a strong man leader.

he was getting everything he wanted by putting his troops on the border. He was forcing the ok on nordstream2, projecting russian power and he could have moved his troops away and laughed at the US 'hes going to invade' intel. It would have been a better move to keep the troops on the border. Now hes blown it all up and crippled himself and Russia.

Even if he had taken Ukraine what would it have bought his patriarchal regime and economic model 10 years? 20?

[Draco-Onis]

I've addressed that nato bullshit point already

As for the bolded he got 73.22% of the popular vote in the last election in 2019

Last I checked we are in 2022, he was in the 30% range before the invasion.

[Elegiac]

Putin sees NATO expansion as a threat, alliance has taken some actions that give the idea that it's not purely defense.

No it hasn't.

Russia was given verbal assurances that NATO would not expand to their borders

No they weren't.

This is purely a function of Putain lashing out because his sphere of influence is shrinking thanks to his own policies, to say nothing of trying to shore up the regime's strength and leave a legacy besides "a transitional leader in a dying empire."

[Edge-]

Last I checked we are in 2022, he was in the 30% range before the invasion.

Man, country has low opinion of untested leader facing a potential invasion from Russia, only to find out their concerns were unfounded and the guy is absolutely crushing it. It's a bit more nuanced than that.

[Draco-Onis]

Man, country has low opinion of untested leader facing a potential invasion from Russia, only to find out their concerns were unfounded and the guy is absolutely crushing it. It's a bit more nuanced than that.

I agree but it doesn't change the fact that his numbers got battered.

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No it hasn't.

Then you probably don't realize why Putin said this was a "peacekeeping mission" similar to "peacekeeping bombs".

[PC2]

Deciding if something is rational or not, is not often left up the perpetrator of the actions in question.

Depends on whether a person is thinking about objective/universal rationality or subjective rationality. I would say stealing is objectively evil and irrational in general but is not always subjectively irrational because people in certain contexts can come up with all kinds of convincing justifications for taking something that doesn't currently belong to them.