Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Magnagarde]

This is the crux of the problem. You can assert everything you want, but if you aren't able to provide relevant examples from sources, you're not going to be convincing.

Your take on it is understandable. As I've said, the tools to look it up are at your disposal. I don't save citations and references in the hopes that one day I'll have proof to provide in a thread on MMOC, saving it in a specific folder for such ceremonial occasions.

To clarify, I'm not saying that it would shock me to find intelligence agencies running operations in the media during the height of the Cold War, but there's so many degrees of separation between that and what was being claimed, which implies that the problem is persistent in the modern day:



A very loose chain of proofs that need to be given are:
- The problem has a historical basis.
- The problem has persisted since the Cold War (i.e.: post-90's).
- The problem has persisted and involved multiple, disparate nations and their news organizations.
- The problem is so widespread in the modern day in the West that there is reasonable cause to think that war reporters are intelligence assets.

We've not even established the first link in that oversimplified chain due to lack of sources, so I'm less inclined to be charitable and even consider the rest until adequate sources are provided.

It has historic basis and the basis is within the Cold War which ended only 30 years ago. The problem has very much persisted; who sold you the story of the Iraqi WMDs and who reported on it? I have never claimed that it is as widespread in the West; that is your personal takeaway. I haven't claimed that it also happens using the same tools as dictatorships and authoritarian countries do it. The West and these are incomparable, but it is no secret that journalism is used to sway public opinion in a specific way; many times it is done in favour of things that benefit the society at large and promote democracy, but other times it isn't. This shouldn't be a surprise and is common knowledge that is taught in universities across the globe.

[Magical Mudcrab]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...te-house-spin/

There's your historical basis and somewhat recent too.

The narrative was drummed up by US and got swallowed hook line and sinker by media of the time and spread far and wide... then the dust settled and realization came much of it was BS. But it was too late already, the job was done.

Not to be rude, but what does this have to do with anything I mentioned? Skimming the article, it seems to be regarding government officials intentionally lying to reporters and news agencies, who then go on to propagate a lie that they believed came from a credible source. This doesn't seem relevant to the idea that many journalists -- war journalists, in particular -- are secretly government assets that are intentionally seeking to deceive or peddle government-mandated "truths". However, please correct me if I misunderstood.

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who sold you the story of the Iraqi WMDs and who reported on it?

This may be the core of the confusion here: does your definition of "government agent," as per your original post, include journalists who unknowingly propagated a lie (i.e.: news sources who were leaked the information and believed the source credible)? If so, it might just be a semantics problem we're having.

[Gaidax]

Not to be rude, but what does this have to do with anything I mentioned? Skimming the article, it seems to be regarding government officials intentionally lying to reporters and news agencies, who then go on to propagate a lie that they believed came from a credible source. This doesn't seem relevant to the idea that many journalists -- war journalists, in particular -- are secretly government assets that are intentionally seeking to deceive or peddle government-mandated "truths". However, please correct me if I misunderstood.

But that's pretty much how it works.

In that case US controlled the false narrative by pushing wild claims out, which were all too happily forwarded far and wide by media. Result - a war built on bullshit that had a popular support based on absolutely false premise.

In the end it's a brilliant and quite blatant example how media is influenced and in turn influences in a favorable way.

And it's not some "conspiracy theory" - that legit happened and is well documented at that. I just tossed you post-factum details untangling that BS.

[Gaidax]

Bonus: for further education you may consider taking "Information in Society" course from your nearest University. I took one, was fun and quite an eye-opener too.

[Gaidax]

How does that show that reporters are spies again?

Did I say they are "spies"?

I just said they are useful tools in a toolbox every reasonable government holds and hell you can bet your as US does. Two way street and all, information and narrative.

You don't need to be "spy" to be useful nowadays.

[Magnagarde]

If so, it might just be a semantics problem we're having.

I think so too, however it seems it isn't over the thing you mentioned, but the meaning of what an "intelligence asset" is. Many are intelligence assets without even being aware of it; in the aforementioned case, they were used as intelligence assets for the purpose of what is understood as "public diplomacy". It has in turn had a catatrophic impact on public opinion of the media. This kind of use requires a vertical structure of information flow and contacts.

Moreover, the US DoD's "Law of War" up untill 2015 or 2016(around that time) defined journalists in warzones as combat participants; spies, enemies, you name it. If the US' official guideline to dealing with journalism within warzones defined them as such until 2015, why is it surprising that Putin doesn't care about killing members of the press in 2022.

[Zaydin]

I think we can take the fact that Russia is deliberately targeting civilians is an admission by Putin that he knows he doesn't have the manpower or resources to actually win in urban combat.

[Magnagarde]

I think we can take the fact that Russia is deliberately targeting civilians is an admission by Putin that he knows he doesn't have the manpower or resources to actually win in urban combat.

Unfortunately, the worst seems to be on the horizon for Kiev. Another, less-talked about city is Odessa; a true historic jewel in Ukraine. My assumption is that they've postponed warfare in Odessa due to its historic importance for Russia.

Odessa, Lviv and Kiev are the most important historic centres in Ukraine. Destroying such important historical cities is a tragedy of its own; the human suffering is the biggest tragedy in and of itself.

[YUPPIE]

is it considered immoral or inhumane to advocate for Putin's death? Not even here in particular, but social media is banning chanting of it.

And of course, Lindsey Graham is still getting shit on for it

People rave daily about his atrocities and war crimes, but when you say "he should die" you're treated as a bad person.

[Afrospinach]

My assumption is that they've postponed warfare in Odessa due to its historic importance for Russia.

Nope, they have had issues getting there at all because of Ukrainian resistance.

[Magnagarde]

Nope, they have had issues getting there at all because of Ukrainian resistance.

It is good news that they aren't resorting to bombing the city the way they're doing elsewhere though. I am familiar with some reports of the UA stopping their advance along the coast around Mykolaiv, but I haven't seen reports of indiscriminate destruction in Odessa. I hope I don't in the future either.

[Kallisto]

It is good news that they aren't resorting to bombing the city the way they're doing elsewhere though. I am familiar with some reports of the UA stopping their advance along the coast around Mykolaiv, but I haven't seen reports of indiscriminate destruction in Odessa. I hope I don't in the future either.

It might be that they want to keep Odessa staying in one piece because of how important it is as a port. Although there's also a small fleet on its way there... From Vladivostock. Which if allowed through the Suez will be there in about 40 days or so.

[Corvus]

Seems Putin's speech at his Nuremberg rally got cut off abruptly on state tv. They said it was a glitch but as a result there are some interesting theories out there as to why.

[YUPPIE]

Seems Putin's speech at his Nuremberg rally got cut off abruptly on state tv. They said it was a glitch but as a result there are some interesting theories out there as to why.

I think it's fake/shopped because he can't appear in public like that without a crosshair hanging over him. Plus, he's already such a paranoiac

[Saradain]

I think it's fake/shopped because he can't appear in public like that without a crosshair hanging over him. Plus, he's already such a paranoiac

Do tell me how to fake a real humans in thousands being there, including BBC reporter from UK?

[YUPPIE]

Do tell me how to fake a real humans in thousands being there, including BBC reporter from UK?

He must be using some kind of trick, as the other person mentioned it is suspicious. The paranoid tirade he recently made of executing all traitors made me certain someone tried to put a hit on him. There’s no reason someone like that would ever force a rally like that right now knowing how many people want him dead.

[Saradain]

He must be using some kind of trick, as the other person mentioned it is suspicious. The paranoid tirade he recently made of executing all traitors made me certain someone tried to put a hit on him. There’s no reason someone like that would ever force a rally like that right now knowing how many people want him dead.

Or it could be his increasing insanity and russian state officials trying to make things seem better than they are in order to keep his grubby little paws off the nuclear buttons (or him getting very lethally mad against the said officials, he can't push the buttons on his own).

Come on, "some kind of trick". We talking magic here about verifiable evidence?

[YUPPIE]

Or it could be his increasing insanity and russian state officials trying to make things seem better than they are in order to keep his grubby little paws off the nuclear buttons (or him getting very lethally mad against the said officials, he can't push the buttons on his own).

Come on, "some kind of trick". We talking magic here about verifiable evidence?

body doubles, etc. Putin has always bragged about his ability to escape death.

[Gaaz]

snip.........

Edit: trying to find an image host right now. Some have been blocked. Ok, I can not post pictures for some reason over here.
https://imgbox.com/ms5iMYaK
Don't bother. This is the view from my window. I tried taking a picture so that only the tower is visible and no nearby buildings, so that it is more difficult to identify exactly where it was taken from for obvious reasons. But naturally, it is not going to be enough for some, unless I am hugging Zelensky with my passport open and then do an id verification check in person with a lawyer in front of a live audience.

As for those who doubt that our military rides in ambulances - taking a picture of that is perhaps the easiest method of committing a suicide. How do you say that in the US - suicide by cop? This is basically the same thing.

Yesterday, 8 AA missiles blew up straight above my house. 4 in the morning, and 4 later in the afternoon. My guess is that Russians send small drones for surveillance and our trigger happies are having the time of their life. I stopped counting explosions that at least do not make my monitor jump a long time ago. These ones pretty much did. I hope that shrapnel from these missiles is not going to puncture my roof someday, as it is going to be a pain in the ass to get there and patch it up.

Also yesterday, me and my wife were looking out of a window and saw something very large and slow take off from somewhere near the tower. Normally, Grad and AA rockets accelerate very fast. These are relatively small. But this was a large missile, with a huge fire plum. Even at that distance we could see a dark spec of where that plum originated, meaning it was very, very large compared to a typical AA or a Grad missile.

[Elenos]

He must be using some kind of trick, as the other person mentioned it is suspicious. The paranoid tirade he recently made of executing all traitors made me certain someone tried to put a hit on him. There’s no reason someone like that would ever force a rally like that right now knowing how many people want him dead.

There's usually security at these events. When I go to the yearly national day parade of my country they pat us down before we enter in general area where our politicians are.

It was Putin and he had easily 100k people there with him.

Let's dismiss this fiction that Russians do not support they the invasion: They overwhelmingly do, or that somehow they simply just believe the propaganda fed to them on TV: They have internet and it was astounding for my girlfriend to see how many young people were in the crowd.

All I can think of is: What a bloody fucking terrible waste of humanity. Ukraine will take a decade at least to recover to where they were pre-invasion, likely a lot more while Russia? Russia has decided to move towards isolation from pretty much the rest of the world, certainly the civilized western world that a decade or two ago they could have been deeply integrated into.

The last 30 years were for nothing.