Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Easo]

So Slant is doubting something oficially confirmed by USA (as per CNN). Fascinating.

Who in their right mind "shows off" their latest missile tech to the enemy? It just doesn't make any sense.

Combat testing. It makes perfect sense. Especially with a weapon no one will be able to find any useful debris from, due to velocities involved.

[uuuhname]

Holy freakin' Christmas what on earth does any of this talk about the capabilities of Russian missiles have to do with anything.

armchair military commander navel gazing.

[Slant]

I was not debating those points at all. Just that those missiles have more than just high speed, that's all.

Read my post carefully, I said they're just "faster". The implication that I was making was that these missiles are normal missiles, with normal payloads (kinetic, explosive or nuclear, take your pick) and that's it. They aren't more maneuverable than normal missiles, they aren't doing any special tricks, they're just "faster" than other missiles.

IF they exist. And given that apparently they are fucking ICBMs launched at altitude, yeah sure, they can go hypersonic. But you know, Apollo 11 was hypersonic as well. It's not actually that impressive if you're talking about big ass rockets like that.

Oh also, if those were Iskanders, that throws a real big load of doubt on the whole "maneuverability" claim, because bouncing off the atmosphere is not what people understand as maneuverability... also, you just missed your target by, well, thousands of miles. I know Russians couldn't aim to save their lives, but that's silly even for their standards.

[PhaelixWW]

I just call bullshit in Russia a) having them

I just linked a source saying that US officials have confirmed it...

So why lob your latest toys at a target that doesn't need them? That's strategically not sound.

Because they wanted a field test? To show their use as a means to intimidate others?

Of course there's potential strategic value. Saying that you have them is not as meaningful as finding an excuse to use them, even if they're not truly necessary in that specific use.

If the Russians actually lobbed those missiles, you can bet your sweet ass that the Pentagon is peering at a telemetry readout right about now and starts to implement programs to counter these missiles.

None of this is a surprise for the Pentagon. Hypersonic missiles have been researched for decades; one has to imagine that parallel research into stopping those missiles has also been done.

Who in their right mind "shows off" their latest missile tech to the enemy? It just doesn't make any sense.

That's just a problem with your "sense", rather than reality.

[Slant]

By traveling at speeds that are difficult to intercept in the time allotted. It’s kinda the biggest concept driving this kind of missile.

Also, let's not forget range.

[Jessicka]

CNN: US officials confirm Russia has used hypersonic missiles against Ukraine

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60806151 Somewhat contradicts that. The CNN article in fact contradicts itself saying the US tracked them in real time, while simultaneously suggesting they're hard to detect.

They're ballistic missiles, not precision guided, which makes any suggestion they're manoeuvrable questionable at best; but lets say they are, it's the speed, not the agility that makes them hard to bring down. If you can in fact, as CNN suggest, track them in real time, then you can have your defences well ahead ready for them, until they change direction by which point you need defences elsewhere to pick them up. They're not dodging air defence systems, they're just making it harder to anticipate at best, because that's how physics works.

Nobody else is using these things, so we're going on Russian bullshit about their capabilities, at least one of which - being hard to track - has been apparently disproven by the US claiming they were tracked in real time just fine. And we now know how wild Russia is with it's propaganda.

[PhaelixWW]

IF they exist.

Still?

And given that apparently they are fucking ICBMs launched at altitude, yeah sure, they can go hypersonic.

ICBMs are hypersonic because they're ballistic. Hypersonic missiles are not. I repeat:

Ballistic missiles are also hypersonic. What differentiates these missiles is not just their speed so much as their speed combined with said maneuverability, both of which make them more difficult to detect/predict.

[Slant]

CNN: US officials confirm Russia has used hypersonic missiles against Ukraine

Thank you, I was able to actually find some more information about the missile than an uninformed poster on here. Seems they are basically just an airlaunched ICBM with limited maneuverability. We'll see how good they actually are.

For now, I remain sceptical about some of the claims.

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Don’t they have shorter ranges than traditional icbms? Like 2000km max?

Oh no, I was thinking "merits of missiles" in comparison to bomber planes. They get places faster and further, ICBMs, I mean. B-52 can go a long way, but I'm not sure if they can reach the other side of the planet without refueling

[Jessicka]

Don’t they have shorter ranges than traditional icbms? Like 2000km max?

The Kinzhal has a 2k range, they also have Zirkon and Avangard missiles which are faster and longer ranged.

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Oh no, I was thinking "merits of missiles" in comparison to bomber planes. They get places faster and further, ICBMs, I mean. B-52 can go a long way, but I'm not sure if they can reach the other side of the planet without refueling

Should have kept the XB-70 program.

[Rasulis]

It is important to take into account how $$ came to be such a currency. Which was a streak of conflicts and deals, starting WW2 with US coming the biggest winner out of it and to the oil being traded in $$ a deal US cut out in 70th involving Saudis and OPEC.

It is not outside the realm of possibility that China bets/prepares for another string of turmoils that can give its currency a spotlight. There is a reason why West is VERY reluctant when it comes to full out financial sanctions - the risks are there.

China is trying to Fasttrack an organic process that took decades. USD position is the global economy is pretty entrenched. It has the full support of economic powerhouses like EU, Britain, Japan, Australia, Canada, Mexico, Taiwan and South Korea. I don't see any of them defecting anytime soon. In addition to the US, over 2 dozen countries use USD as their official primary currency or alongside their currency. Many more countries where USD is used as unofficial currency.

[Slant]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60806151 Somewhat contradicts that. The CNN article in fact contradicts itself saying the US tracked them in real time, while simultaneously suggesting they're hard to detect.

They're ballistic missiles, not precision guided, which makes any suggestion they're manoeuvrable questionable at best; but lets say they are, it's the speed, not the agility that makes them hard to bring down. If you can in fact, as CNN suggest, track them in real time, then you can have your defences well ahead ready for them, until they change direction by which point you need defences elsewhere to pick them up. They're not dodging air defence systems, they're just making it harder to anticipate at best, because that's how physics works.

Nobody else is using these things, so we're going on Russian bullshit about their capabilities, at least one of which - being hard to track - has been apparently disproven by the US claiming they were tracked in real time just fine. And we now know how wild Russia is with it's propaganda.

I was thinking the same thing. And if the US tracked them, they know exactly what kinda performance they're looking at. And how maneuverable those things are. There are a lot of educated guesses you can make off of a good track. Russia wouldn't have done this if they had a smart person in charge. This is stupid, not impressing anyone and pointlessly giving away an advantage. Sun Tzu probably just turned over in disgust.

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I can’t comment on the fuel requirements of aircraft.

That's a curious statement.

[PhaelixWW]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60806151 Somewhat contradicts that. The CNN article in fact contradicts itself saying the US tracked them in real time, while simultaneously suggesting they're hard to detect.

They're hard to detect by radar. The US (and presumably Russia and other superpowers) have satellite networks that can detect hypersonic missiles. That's part of the reason why they're not quite the silver bullet they've been claimed to be.

This is the US basically warning Russia that they have the means to detect those missiles, yes.

They're ballistic missiles

They're not ballistic missiles.

but lets say they are, it's the speed, not the agility that makes them hard to bring down.

That's not entirely accurate. It's the speed plus the maneuverability, again. They're faster than normal cruise missiles, but more maneuverable than ballistic missiles. The combination is much harder to bring down.

If you can in fact, as CNN suggest, track them in real time, then you can have your defences well ahead ready for them, until they change direction by which point you need defences elsewhere to pick them up.

Not every country has a satellite network capable of tracking them in real time. That's a lot of countries.

Nobody else is using these things, so we're going on Russian bullshit about their capabilities, at least one of which - being hard to track - has been apparently disproven by the US claiming they were tracked in real time just fine. And we now know how wild Russia is with it's propaganda.

Feel free to read up on it.

[Gaidax]

China is trying to Fasttrack an organic process that took decades. USD position is the global economy is pretty entrenched. It has the full support of economic powerhouses like EU, Britain, Japan, Australia, Canada, Mexico, Taiwan and South Korea. I don't see any of them defecting anytime soon. In addition to the US, over 2 dozen countries use USD as their official primary currency or alongside their currency. Many more countries where USD is used as unofficial currency.

The main point is that every conflict like this is an opportunity to get more "customers" onboard. It is a process that takes decades, China is just preparing the ground for it. Russia is a big customer there that can potentially bring more onboard too.

[Slant]

Should have kept the XB-70 program.

Shoulda, coulda. The US seems to be pretty comfortable about defending regular ICBMs. I'm not sure these "hypersonic aeroballistic" missiles are going to cause any headaches in the US.

[Jessicka]

I was thinking the same thing. And if the US tracked them, they know exactly what kinda performance they're looking at. And how maneuverable those things are. There are a lot of educated guesses you can make off of a good track. Russia wouldn't have done this if they had a smart person in charge. This is stupid, not impressing anyone and pointlessly giving away an advantage. Sun Tzu probably just turned over in disgust.

Well given the suggestions Russia already pissed away its stocks of regular Iskanders, there's a suggestion is a combination of dick waving and desperation to keep the pressure up by eating into the - very limited - stocks of these.

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They're hard to detect by radar. The US (and presumably Russia and other superpowers) have satellite networks that can detect hypersonic missiles. That's part of the reason why they're not quite the silver bullet they've been claimed to be.

This is the US basically warning Russia that they have the means to detect those missiles, yes.



They're not ballistic missiles.



That's not entirely accurate. It's the speed plus the maneuverability, again. They're faster than normal cruise missiles, but more maneuverable than ballistic missiles. The combination is much harder to bring down.



Not every country has a satellite network capable of tracking them in real time. That's a lot of countries.



Feel free to read up on it.

From your own link:

Many of the claims about them are exaggerated or simply false.

[Slant]

Ooh, quoting their own link, my favourite type of forum smackdown.

[Kaleredar]

I said it before and I'll say it again, Russia switching to bombing civilian targets is an admission on Putins part that thinks he lacks the manpower or resources to win urban combat considering I've seen numbers varying from the attackers needing a 5 to 1 advantage to a 10 to 1 advantage to successfully take a city.

Now see, I would personally assume that attacking things like Children's hospitals or blowing up theaters people are taking shelter in would only serve to galvanize the local population into hating the invaders even more.

Such that, even if they were to occupy them, there would continue to be decades of local resentment manifesting itself in violent insurrection and general subterfuge.

[PhaelixWW]

From your own link:

I mean, the article literally goes into depth on the subject.

Obviously, some of the claims are exaggerated, as I mentioned.

Are you just assuming that the claims you're talking about are the ones that are false? Surely you can do a better search job than that?

Or are you just lazy?

[Jastall]

The main point is that every conflict like this is an opportunity to get more "customers" onboard. It is a process that takes decades, China is just preparing the ground for it. Russia is a big customer there that can potentially bring more onboard too.

I wouldn't be surprised if, medium term, South America was in their sights. Japan and SK are rivals and Europe is now more firmly in bed with daddy USA than ever... but SA is a continent with growing population and economic importance, and while some countries have ties to the West many others don't. Russia was already not part of the Western cool kid's club so it's not that great a gain for them I think.

Still, the overwhelming among of financial and economic power today rests in the hands of one power bloc. China will certainly try to upend this situation but I doubt they'll be successful for many decades unless some cataclysm somehow affects only the West.

[PhaelixWW]

Ooh, quoting their own link, my favourite type of forum smackdown.

Except there's no "smackdown".

There's a lot of misconstrued hype about hypersonic missiles. More so, when you consider specific claims made by the countries who claim to have them (Russia, North Korea, China).

But the points I made? They're accurate.