Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Slant]

You just handwaved brutal dicators, genocidal maniac, violators of human rights because you " are not interested" in them. You can't say you have morals when you are in bed with those people, I am not just naming countries. Modi the prime minister of India is currently in the process of "cleansing" his country of Muslims and has been linked to mass murders and has invaded contested territories. The former president of Haiti was installed by the US and has lead several atrocities, his election has lead the country being the mess it is. Saudi Arabia currently invading Yemen and creating the biggest humanitarian crisis in history, for fuck sake dude you just hand waved the death and suffering of countless humans.

Are you not "interested" because they aren't Ukraine or because they contradict your narrative?

I'm not interested, because Egypt isn't causing problems to anyone. Neither is India. Did you think I care about that little feud between them and Pakistan? Nah man, they can bash each others heads in as much as they like. There's no innocent in that conflict.

I'm not here to solve everyone's problems or create Utopia. I can't fix stupid, and I think if the stupid want to kill each other, that's perfectly alright. Let evolution figure it out. I'm way the fuck more complex in my thinking than you'll ever understand. And I know you're not as black/white as your simplistic post indicates. Perhaps if you didn't assume I'm an imbecile 3 year old dribbling from his mouth, you would move this discussion forward.

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That's hilarious.

Didn't US run to our new best friend Nicolas like what, a week ago?

It's like Draco said - the list of such regimes you're too happy to listen and offer trade agreements to is pretty damn extensive.

That's why I'm literally rolling on the floor laughing every time I see someone like you start to post what you posted. It's like come on, man... (Obama version, he really nailed it).

Africa is more than fucking Egypt or Lybia or whatever the fuck your puny minds can focus on this minute. And my approach is more constructive than people like you sitting there being smartasses about things they haven't thought of 5 minutes prior.

[PC2]

In the sense that they shouldn't be arrested and convicted and sentenced to prison for holding those views.

Not in the sense that they shouldn't be maligned and denigrated and mocked publicly in every public forum available, not in the sense that they shouldn't be fired with cause from their jobs over it, not in the sense that anyone has to put up with them expressing those views without slapping back at them in condemnation, no.

If you say stupid shit and your life gets ruined because everyone hates you now, the only person accountable there is you, for saying the stupid shit in the first place. That it was technically your "right" does not change that.

lol no worries, most people can't really be cancelled in any meaningful sense and there will always be demand for a political side that opposes the mainstream political philosophy.

[Easo]

They do have some. The TTL chips my college used in basic electronics classes were mostly Russian made, though this was like 15 years ago.

But watching them try to fly modern planes using Apollo-era computers would be pretty comical.

Ehh, planes are flying old crap by default anyway. You don't need the latest for the tasks at hand plus it introduces complexity and more things to be tested against failure.

Regardless - Russia will have issues regarding microchips, domestic electronics production will suffer a lot. I can bet that China is happy right now about all the future deals coming in.

Again, how does this end for Russia? You're relying upon an awful lot of downright apathy from people- and countries- that are looking for every opportunity to smack Russia back into place.

We don't know. We can take guesses, maybe even educated ones (those calculating sanctions would have done them). I do not think they are in trouble of actual collapse of economy, but they will probably loose a decade of progress/will be stuck in slowdown while world moves on. Might become more dependant on China.
A lot depends on what internal propaganda sells and if that succeeds.

Wheat shipments to Central Asia, Middle Eastern and Africa will be problematic.

There is another economic consideration for countries, such as SA, India and Turkey, that buy advanced arm technologies from Russia. Can they still expect arm deliveries?

The problem is that Russia has ZERO advanced semiconductor manufacturing capacity. For that matter, they have zero semiconductor manufacturing capacity. Period.

India, for one, clearly does not give a crap (look at the oil deal made a week ago). Rest will keep buying arms and other exports. Some, like Turkey, can probably be persuaded somehow to stop sitting on two chairs.

They do have some capacity regarding semiconductors, but not enough for everyone/all requirements in all spheres.

Killing the President of the United States would be an act of war and spark a war with NATO.

It would not if said president is in active war zone. No one would go to war over Biden dying in Ukraine. Would there be response? Yes.

Uhh the USA has done a successful test. Am I missing something?
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-...on-2021-09-27/

Well, this thing is failing so far https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-183_ARRW

What you linked is something else (there are different projects for the different branches of military), "a concept". In general USA is behind, as there is nothing in actual service, as opposed to Russia, for now. As I said before - USA should catch up in time, due to larger budgets and bigger R&D capabilities.

Before the war zelensky jailed largest opposition figure, 3 opposition media sources, now with martial law he got ridd of all parties, he's now officially a dictator, how will people spin this one?

Different rules in wartime, long way to go to an actual dictatorship. You are reaching too far, Waffles.
Sure, I too question certain events in Ukraine and the ban on parties is... debatable, but you are trying to find what does not exist. Why, Waffles?

Have you ever heard about the second punic war? Wasn't a movie...

England in WW2 also comes to mind.

But cutting the agitprop - you would do well to listen to your own advice. Not that i think you're a Putin shill, but its kinda strange that you always want people to find facts an sources, but if you FEEL it was an ukrainian false flag - you run with it. Not sure if this is on purpose - but you're doing it.

This is war, everyone is doing false flags, they sell, it's part of wars as such. I want people to stop blindly believing everything and doing emotional kneejerks purely because Russia is the invader thus everything else does not matter, even what could possibly be true coming from the attacker's side. I want a realistic view of the war.

I mean, "lucked out" except for the whole Russian invasion thing. It's a huge mark in his favor that he stayed to lead the fight, rather than do what any of those elitist oligarchs would have done in the same situation.

Yeah, he did not run and still is pretty much confirmed to be in Kiev, contrary to what certain people expected and keep posting fake news of. That alone takes balls and respect should be given here. I remember seeing reports of some elites running away, plus everyone (I hope) saw the videos of "important people" being escorted with priority from Ukraine - but Zelensky stayed.

We recognise the gear. That's why we're laughing about it.

No, you don't, "T-60" guy. Let me know when Poland, first country between you and Russia finally replaces their hundreds of 30+ year old T-72's, some with barely any upgrades, then we can talk. Even their recent Abrams order + the existing Leo 2's do not come close to being enough.
Or maybe when Czech Republic does. Or maybe when your own won't be based on a model first rolled out in 70'ies.
/shrug

[Poopymonster]

Can anyone find Ramstein on a map? Just a random question.

They're centered in Berlin currently, their album Zeit due out next month.

[Easo]

Next round of talks should be tomorrow, again - remotely via videocall.

*glances at Poland’s NATO status*

Uhhhhh… let’s see how the US military stacks up kiddo.

That's the big point about NATO - most of the firepower is from USA, leading to certain discussions you should be familiar with. Plus said firepower has to be moved to Europe first. Remember Iraqi wars? Took months to gather up the invasion force, just like Russia had to in Ukraine.
Also, we kinda were talking about Slant not being able to recognize vehicles and just parroting crap about old equipment. Funny, most Abrams tanks are also 30 or so years old (Lima tank factory is pretty much just spending time upgrading the old mothballed stock, not making new ones), it's the upgrades keeping them useful. Almost like it does for someone else...

[Easo]

I’m talking about airstrikes. You really need to keep up when talking down to people about out of date tech in a war.

Let me know when you can take ground with only airstrikes.

[Easo]

Good news! We can eliminate all of Soviet tanks with just airstrikes. And it’s defending ground, not taking it.

Ah, if only it would work in vacuum like that. And I guess you think the potential invader would surrender without loosing any land? Very wishful.
Next you gonna to add that, for example, Russia would not take anything in Baltics before needing to be pushed back, right? Because geography would not matter?

Funny how aircraft works. Takes just a bad weather to ground even the most advanced ones... Or that there are limits on precision weaponry stocks (hello Lybia). Or other things, like ballistic missiles arriving at airfields.
It all works together as a complex, not alone. Airforce is the primary force, but it cannot work only by itself. Pity to those not understanding it.

[Slant]

No, you don't, "T-60" guy. Let me know when Poland, first country between you and Russia finally replaces their hundreds of 30+ year old T-72's, some with barely any upgrades, then we can talk. Even their recent Abrams order + the existing Leo 2's do not come close to being enough.
Or maybe when Czech Republic does. Or maybe when your own won't be based on a model first rolled out in 70'ies.
/shrug

Yeah... shows how much you know. Nothing in the Russian arsenal could penetrate a Leo2A7. If you think that thing still runs on 70s tech, you're beyond deluded. Same with the Abrams that pretty much takes a parallel course of development to the Leo2. And while you're doing that, I'm watching videos of T-60 tanks being blown up in Ukraine right now. And you're telling me I don't know my shit?

Okay then... I mean, clearly the war is going the way you're predicting. Oh, wait.. it's not. Not at all. Actually, it's quite the opposite. Russia is losing.

[Xyonai]

lol no worries, most people can't really be cancelled in any meaningful sense and there will always be demand for a political side that opposes the mainstream political philosophy.

The existence of so many successful Right-Wing pundents and YouTuber's proves there's a seemingly unending market for thoughtless contrarianism.

[Gorsameth]

I don't think anyone here legit thinks the Russian army can take on even just Europe in a conventional war at this stage.

Funny how quick things can change. A month ago most would have said Russia would steamroll through Europe.

[Xyonai]

I don't think anyone here legit thinks the Russian army can take on even just Europe in a conventional war at this stage.

Funny how quick things can change. A month ago most would have said Russia would steamroll through Europe.

Even at best I never thought Russia could just take over Europe whenever it felt like it, though assumed any sort of war between the two powers would be incredibly drawn out and protracted. Turns out they can't do jack shit to a country that actually has an organized military and aren't just punching down on insurgents or civil-war-torn ex-Soviet states; so any ideas of them trying to actually attack anyone else in the rest of mainland Europe is a pipe dream when they can barely secure a country that's right next to them.

Honestly it's probably why their forces seem so keen on commiting random violence against civilians: Firstly It's what they're good at, and it's a heinous attempt to break Ukraine's moral to make them surrender so Russia doesn't have to actually keep fighting anymore.

[Draco-Onis]

I'm not interested, because Egypt isn't causing problems to anyone. Neither is India. Did you think I care about that little feud between them and Pakistan? Nah man, they can bash each others heads in as much as they like. There's no innocent in that conflict.

I'm not here to solve everyone's problems or create Utopia. I can't fix stupid, and I think if the stupid want to kill each other, that's perfectly alright. Let evolution figure it out. I'm way the fuck more complex in my thinking than you'll ever understand. And I know you're not as black/white as your simplistic post indicates. Perhaps if you didn't assume I'm an imbecile 3 year old dribbling from his mouth, you would move this discussion forward.

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Africa is more than fucking Egypt or Lybia or whatever the fuck your puny minds can focus on this minute. And my approach is more constructive than people like you sitting there being smartasses about things they haven't thought of 5 minutes prior.

I haven't talked to you as a 3 year old they at least have the excuse of being new to the world to be so gullible. I have no problem with this line of thinking it is cruel but at least honest, what I had trouble with was your previous statement that this was some moral human rights fight of good vs evil.

[Easo]

Yeah... shows how much you know. Nothing in the Russian arsenal could penetrate a Leo2A7. If you think that thing still runs on 70s tech, you're beyond deluded. Same with the Abrams that pretty much takes a parallel course of development to the Leo2. And while you're doing that, I'm watching videos of T-60 tanks being blown up in Ukraine right now. And you're telling me I don't know my shit?

Okay then... I mean, clearly the war is going the way you're predicting. Oh, wait.. it's not. Not at all. Actually, it's quite the opposite. Russia is losing.

It can't penetrate it, why, exactly? Because you know the exact specifications of Leo's armor? You don't. The exact specification of Russian APFSDS rounds or ATGM's? You don't. And how many of those you got? Same question so many like to ask Russia about their latest versions.
And why the design from 70's is relevant? Because that gives limits as to what you can change in a tank.

Again, what T-60's in Ukraine are you talking about? The only ones are in museum.

You’re really losing it here, you were talking about an invasion of Poland. Now you’re going “we’d have to invade Russia though!” Seriously, you question why people respond to you the way they do.

You are looking at what happens when someone underestimates the opponent right now. But I see that you think that "we will just bomb them" is gonna work. I guess NATO started the quite massive and expensive rearmament campaigns after Crimea purely for lolz, airforce, yo!
Any war with Russia would involve Western Russia/Poland/Baltics. So yeah, I am talking about something very relevant. Maybe you think NATO will put shitload of divisions in Baltics? Let me tell you - they won't, we are the litteral buffer zone to give more time to react, which will have to cleaned out afterwards. Airstrikes only my ass...

[Jastall]

I don't think anyone here legit thinks the Russian army can take on even just Europe in a conventional war at this stage.

Funny how quick things can change. A month ago most would have said Russia would steamroll through Europe.

Even then that was an extremely optimistic assessment of Russian capabilities. Europe isn't small, logistical considerations alone would prevent all but the most powerful and unopposed armies from steamrolling it, and Russia would be neither even at the top of their game which they really obviously aren't.

[Slant]

He’s claiming those columns would somehow be more effective in a NATO country than they would in Ukraine. It’s hilarious shit.

What's really hilarious is that he's not paying attention to all those videos. What Russia is experiencing right now? That's still pretty much wintertime. They're not in spring yet. You know, the muddy season... Their pain hasn't even started yet, as far as logistics are concerned. I see no scenario in which Russia is coming out on top here. It's not just the stalemate some press is talking about today. What stalemate? There is no stalemate? All Ukraine needs to do is hold on, defend and the longer this drags on, the more uncomfortable the situation in Moscow is going to be.

And as far as logistics go, the Ukraine can, is and will be supported by the entire fucking western hemisphere. They will NEVER run out of bullets.

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I haven't talked to you as a 3 year old they at least have the excuse of being new to the world to be so gullible. I have no problem with this line of thinking it is cruel but at least honest, what I had trouble with was your previous statement that this was some moral human rights fight of good vs evil.

It is. But I am picking my battles. I'm not going to even pretend whatever I (or let's just play pretend and assume I'm Germany) say to Saudi Arabia or Quatar will change their mind. Nor China (although we keep trying, for god knows what reason). Not while they're basically sponsoring our sport events/clubs. There's such a humungous amount of hypocrisy going on right there. But there you go, society is not one homogenous body. In general, on average, though, I am more concerned about the nations that everyone keeps forgetting. Rwanda, Central Africa and the likes. And in general, on average, we try to do the right thing. Which is more than you can say for Russia that doesn't even pretend to be any good guy anymore, or China, who've never signed up on ethics to begin with.

And yes, the AU has the potential to be a pretty good thing for Africa in general.

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It can't penetrate it, why, exactly? Because you know the exact specifications of Leo's armor? You don't. The exact specification of Russian APFSDS rounds or ATGM's? You don't. And how many of those you got? Same question so many like to ask Russia about their latest versions.
And why the design from 70's is relevant? Because that gives limits as to what you can change in a tank.

I've talked to tank commanders. I'm not even trying to convince you, but rest assured, my opinion isn't coming out of a blogpost on the internet. To quote "The only thing that can penetrate a Leo2 A7 is a Leo2 A7." It's more than just the type of round. The cannon on both the Leo2 and Abrams are formidable, the range far exceeds any Russian armor, the precision is insane while moving through heavy terrain. It's not even a contest, buddy. Not to mention that whatever Russia is trying to demonstrate in Ukraine right now, is not even close to what NATO envisions as modern combat.

To simplify a bit: When NATO tanks roll in, there won't be Russian tanks left to oppose them.

[Easo]

Roflmao, you were talking about how Russian tanks would roll Poland. Yeah. No. Not even remotely. The fuckers can’t even roll a nation with minimal air support. Hell, they can barely defeat the massive hurdle known as getting deployed. Go talk about how scary Russia is somewhere else.

Find the quote of me saying "Russian tanks will roll Poland", because what I did was mention Poland as a place where war would happen and that they too have old equipment. Keep underestimating them, in the meantime we here in Baltics and Poland are keeping up the armament process.

I've talked to tank commanders. I'm not even trying to convince you, but rest assured, my opinion isn't coming out of a blogpost on the internet. To quote "The only thing that can penetrate a Leo2A7 is a Leo2A7."

"My cousin's friend's girlfriends uncle, who happens to know a dude who works near army base etc. etc."

[Elenos]

I've talked to tank commanders. I'm not even trying to convince you, but rest assured, my opinion isn't coming out of a blogpost on the internet. To quote "The only thing that can penetrate a Leo2 A7 is a Leo2 A7." It's more than just the type of round. The cannon on both the Leo2 and Abrams are formidable, the range far exceeds any Russian armor, the precision is insane while moving through heavy terrain. It's not even a contest, buddy. Not to mention that whatever Russia is trying to demonstrate in Ukraine right now, is not even close to what NATO envisions as modern combat.

To simplify a bit: When NATO tanks roll in, there won't be Russian tanks left to oppose them.

Ask those tank commanders how many Leopards they have that are working. HINT: It won't be more then 200.

Also that's pure bullshit about the Leo2 A7 being the only thing that could penetrate it: The gun on the Leo is an 120 MM gun. A T-72 meanwhile is an 125 MM gun, and yes Russia has SABOT rounds.

Like genuinely the NATO fantasies of rolling over Russia is juvenile at this stage. This war being fought in Ukraine should tell you exactly why. It's one thing for Ukraine to hold off Russia by using heavy urban cover while striking their exposed forces with drones and artillery in a poorly planned invasion. It is a vastly different affair to wage an offensive war against Russia in their own dug in defensive positions.

NATO's main trump card, the thing they've actually invested many of their resources, well rather what the US has invested their resources in because Germany is utter crap at this stage ( from Germany's own military sources ), is airpower, but securing air superiority over Russia is a very very tall order given S-300s, S-400s, TORs and Buks.

Let me know how many sorties Ukraine has flown with their Mig-29s, Su-27s and Su-25s, I am REALLY curious to know.

Shilling for Russia like this just gives lie to your previous objections

Easo is from the Baltics IIRC, accusing him of being a Russian shill because he calls out fantasy bullshit that ANY actual military analyst would disprove is pretty insulting given the history of the Baltics against Russian oppression.

Some of us actually do live in countries that have suffered greatly because of Russia.

Again, Poland’s tanks mean fuck all.

Poland purchased top of the line Leopard tanks and is purchasing some of the latest versions of the Abrams Tank, once they receive them they'll have the second largest and most powerful tank force in all of NATO.

Poland's tanks are the frontline armored units NATO has against Russia, because thank God Poland doesn't believe in Juvenile fantasies of western strength against Russia.

[Makabreska]

Easo is from the Baltics IIRC, accusing him of being a Russian shill because he calls out fantasy bullshit that ANY actual military analyst would disprove is pretty insulting given the history of the Baltics against Russian oppression.

Some of us actually do live in countries that have suffered greatly because of Russia.

Where someone comes from means nothing. I got poles here that support Russian aggression simply because there are still some unresolved polish-Ukrainian issues.

[Poopymonster]

I don't think anyone here legit thinks the Russian army can take on even just Europe in a conventional war at this stage.

Funny how quick things can change. A month ago most would have said Russia would steamroll through Europe.

I honestly thought Ukraine would be a weekend adventure. The combo of Russian incompetence and Ukrainian chutzpah was an eye opener to myself and many others.

[Mihalik]

Funny how aircraft works.

Funny how Russian tanks work...as in they don't.

Or for that matter Russian logistics which collapses about a 150km from their own bases.