Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Draco-Onis]

The nazis didn't start shoving people into ovens in 1933 either, and yet that's when the nazis started locking communists etc up in camps.

It's rather you displaying your own ignorance, and deciding to keep doubling down on it rather than bowing out when you're wrong.

It's rather ludicrous you think Russian sees Ukrainian like the Nazis viewed the Jews or communists.

[Vankrys]

When it will be a thing, then it will be re-evaluated. Nothing is static.

I do wish to chill down the optimism - you will have to wait a good half a decade the least for that even being a thing potentially.

People here can't wrap their heads around the fact that Russia had it much worse and 20 years down the road they found themselves on a huge pile of money and in West being talks of WW3.

So now they will have another bunch of shit years, until inevitably there will be some settlement. Business as usual, not their first rodeo.

we are more in agreement, you and I, then we realize.
Of course, i never say said Ukraine joining NATO in 2022 is even remotely possible, i was just saying
- never say never
- geopolitical landscapes are always shifting
- it is not impossible thinking Ukraine as a NATO member within the next decade
- What Zelinsly says or does not say matters little, countries walk back their words all the times (exemple: the Iran deal)

[Elegiac]

It's rather ludicrous you think Russian sees Ukrainian like the Nazis viewed the Jews.

Why's it ludicrous when Putain himself said as much?

What we now call Ukraine, he says, “was entirely created by Russia or, to be more precise, by Bolshevik Communist Russia.” In this questionable narrative, a trio of early Soviet leaders — Lenin, Stalin, and Khrushchev — carved land away from Russia and several nearby nations to create a distinct and ahistorical republic called Ukraine. The creation of Ukraine and the other Soviet republics, Putin says, was an attempt to win the support of “the most zealous nationalists” across the Soviet Union — at the expense of the historical idea of Russia.

In the speech, he uses a revealing metaphor on these issues: “the virus of nationalism.” Ukrainian nationalism, in his view, is an infection introduced to the Russian host by the Bolsheviks; when the Soviet Union collapsed, and republics from Ukraine to Estonia to Georgia declared independence, the virus killed its host.

The choice of words is the indicator. It's the same language used by fascists when describing the groups they want to erase.

Once again; what exactly is it that you think you're accomplishing by downplaying or outright excusing the Kremlin's policies?

[Azadina]

You do realize you are basically asking Ukraine to enter a never ending war right? because even if you are right Russia isn't going to entirely pull out of Ukraine, they will always have forces in the separatist regions and the fighting would never stop. There's no situation where Ukraine on its own gets its entire territory back from Russia and gets peace in the process.

As opposed to...what? Immediate unconditional surrender, like some have wished from the start here? To hell with that, or anything like that. Ukraine remains Ukraine, Russia fucks off back to Russia. How about that for solution?

[Draco-Onis]

As opposed to...what? Immediate unconditional surrender, like some have wished from the start here? To hell with that, or anything like that. Ukraine remains Ukraine, Russia fucks off back to Russia. How about that for solution?

Please show me where I said they need to unconditionally surrender, you know there's a planet size gap between fighting until the end and total surrender right? The extremes are not the only options.

[Elegiac]

Please show me where I said they need to unconditionally surrender, you know there's a compromise between fighting until the end and total surrender right?

Uh huh.

In other words: the annexation of Ukraine is acceptable to you as long as it's done in a piecemeal fashion through sequential "compromises" in which Ukraine yields increasing amounts of territory and Russia yields... fuck all, I guess? Rofl.

The term for that is appeasement.

[Shadowferal]

Here is the thing, NATO is not an economic agreement, i think everyone knows that, though it does encourage friendly economic and trading relationship between members. But, safety and stability does help a country to develop its economy, and NATO provide that. For exemple, investing billions of dollars in Ukraine building manufacture plants or oil refinery, even before the war, was a risky venture. Ukraine alone cannot guaranty its safety and, if Russia seize or destroy the plant, investors stand to lose billions. Contrast this with country like the Baltic country. The relative safety provided by NATO, can and does attract foreign investments. Lithuania GDP increase 500% in the last 20 years. There is a link between safety and prosperity.

The upshot imo is that attacking any country in the EU will eventually result involving NATO as it will involve NATO allied countries that are well into EU countries.

[Gaidax]

Uh huh.

In other words: the annexation of Ukraine is acceptable to you as long as it's done in a piecemeal fashion through sequential "compromises" in which Ukraine yields increasing amounts of territory and Russia yields... fuck all, I guess? Rofl.

The term for that is appeasement.

And what you gonna do about it?

Reality is a bitch. That's why I'm saying that no matter how much Ukraine protests - Crimea goes to Russia, simply because they can do nothing about that one, for instance.

Right now Ukraine needs to work hard to minimize the damage they will sustain both outside and inside these negotiations. Some things are easily given up, others will be a sacrifice.

Russia will also not get 100% of what it wants, so the compromise is there. They will meet somewhere in the middle.

[Elegiac]

And what you gonna do about it?

Not carry water for the Kremlin and insist that continued sanctions and military aid to Ukraine and insurgents in its Russian occupied areas are bad because Humanitarian Reasons™, for one thing.

Russia will also not get 100% of what it wants

One side sacrificing something while the other gets "partial success" isn't a compromise, habibi. It's appeasement.

[Flarelaine]

Yup yup, and Kyiv was supposed to have fallen after the first weekend.

Keep on doomin', the longer Russia stays in Ukraine, the worse it gets for them.

It also gets worse for Ukraine, though.

[Vankrys]

As opposed to...what? Immediate unconditional surrender, like some have wished from the start here? To hell with that, or anything like that. Ukraine remains Ukraine, Russia fucks off back to Russia. How about that for solution?

Russia has already lost. The faster Putin realize that, the smaller the body count will be.

Let's theorize for a minute.
Say Russia manage to capture Ukraine president and member of the government, he exile them, imprison them or execute them, no matter, they are out of the picture.
Then he installs a pro Russian government, through force or fake elections, then leave, perhaps leaving a token armed forces to protect the new president.

Then what happens? The Ukrainians ousted a pro russian president in 2014 during the revolution of Dignity. Does anyone think the Ukrainians had a change in mind 8 years later and after being invaded, bombed and killed by the Russians, they would suddenly love the russians and love to be governed by them.

[Gaidax]

Not carry water for the Kremlin and insist that continued sanctions and military aid to Ukraine and insurgents in its Russian occupied areas are bad because Humanitarian Reasons™, for one thing.

So basically nothing, that's what I thought.

Here's a shocker for you - sanctions will also be on negotiations table - that's the only real leverage Ukraine has.

- - - Updated - - -

*snip*

Toppling Ukrainian government is not on the books for Russia anymore. It's part of realization.

You people need to get up to speed there.

[Azadina]

Please show me where I said they need to unconditionally surrender, you know there's a planet size gap between fighting until the end and total surrender right? The extremes are not the only options.

If you'll note, the other part of that sentence you bolded is also important.

[Draco-Onis]

If you'll note, the other part of that sentence you bolded is also important.

How do you propose Ukraine on its own takes back all of its territory? again not even the most optimistic scenarios see that happening. I don't think you are being realistic here especially with so many lives at stake. I understand the urge not to want to give the hostage taker anything but that's what we do all the time because lives are more important.

[Gorsameth]

I'd say the question if/when Ukraine surrenders to Russia for indiscriminately flattening cities is a question only the Ukrainian people can answer, and not something for forum warriors on MMO-C. While they fight, the West should keep supplying them to continue said fight for their freedom.

And sofar it would seem there answer is still no on surrender.

[Elegiac]

So basically nothing, that's what I thought.

Here's a shocker for you - sanctions will also be on negotiations table - that's the only real leverage Ukraine has.

Hey, remember back in the beginning of this thread when you said that the sanctions would be perfunctory or ineffective because Putain has planned for every contingency?

Kinda funny how you've switched tack now that they've been proven anything but.

- - - Updated - - -

How do you propose Ukraine on its own takes back all of its territory? again not even the most optimistic scenarios see that happening. I don't think you are being realistic here especially with so many lives at stake. I understand the urge not to want to give the hostage taker anything but that's what we do all the time because lives are more important.

You'll do anything for peace for our time, we get it. No need to keep belabouring the point.

[Azadina]

How do you propose Ukraine on its own takes back all of its territory? again not even the most optimistic scenarios see that happening. I don't think you are being realistic here especially with so many lives at stake. I understand the urge not to want to give the hostage taker anything but that's what we do all the time because lives are more important.

Surrender and appeasement, how noble. Luckily, the Ukrainians have more of a spine than that option.

[Draco-Onis]

Surrender and appeasement, how noble. Luckily, the Ukrainians have more of a spine than that option.

That's right you tell that coward Zelensky to grow a spine and stop trying to negotiate a diplomatic solution by conceding points every week like the Russians are doing.

[Vankrys]

Apparently, the Belarus railway workers aren't too keen with the war in Ukraine and the use of their country as a staging ground. The railway connection between Belarus and Ukraine have suddenly fallen into disrepair and can no longer be used, for the moment, to reinforce and resupply Russian forces in northern Ukraine.
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russ.../31761964.html

[Azadina]

That's right you tell that coward Zelensky to grow a spine and stop trying to negotiate a diplomatic solution by conceding points every week like the Russians are doing.

He has been doing pretty fine so far. Had you been President of Ukraine, on day one of the invasion, not only would you have taken the offered ride out, you would have;

- sold off the next 5 generations as indentured servants to Russia, because ya know, lives important, gotta appease Russia
- given away all the rights to Ukraines natural resources to Russia
- handed over any part of the land Russia wanted