Russian invasion of Ukraine

[dextersmith]

Current system primarily benefits Western powers; benefits of everyone else are secondary - and, as shown by last sanctions, vulnerable to disruption.

Creating stronger, more robust and more equal world - even if it will make both "golden billion" and the rest of the world temporarily poorer - should provide better growth long-term.

You're so contradicting. You complain that

Current system primarily benefits Western powers; benefits of everyone else are secondary

then say

even if it will make both "golden billion" and the rest of the world temporarily poorer - should provide better growth long-term.

How are you so sure the current system isn't making golden billion for the West temporarily but is also providing better growth long-term? Fact is, the current system is beneficial and worthwhile to all participants or everyone else wouldn't participate.

[Mihalik]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60881915

"The Ukrainians' success depends on two things, their own phenomenal courage, and, just as critical, the steady supply of military hardware that it's getting from Western countries. If those countries, or the public in those countries, start for a moment to think David has beaten Goliath then the flow of weapons could slow or stop. That would be catastrophic for the Ukrainian resistance."

Had it been up to you, we would have written Ukraine off day 1 of this thing and then all your doomsaying could have actually been true.

If you truly oppose Russia, I don't understand how you fail to see just how much work you're doing for them.

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How are you so sure the current system isn't making golden billion for the West temporarily but is also providing better growth long-term? Fact is, the current system is beneficial and worthwhile to all participants or everyone else wouldn't participate.

His problem is that the current system is MUTUALLY beneficial to everyone. Russia wants to go back to good old golden days of empire, where you take everything from the periphery and occasionally send in your crack goons from another colony, like the Chechens, to remind the others to be grateful for the morsels you've left them.

[dextersmith]

A lot of things could happen that would allow Russia to avoid invading Ukraine. We're in the world where they all didn't happen.

Western word from Ukrainian example will be seen as worthless as well. Two-faced proclamations where publicly West says "Every country is free to choose!" and privately tells very same governments "Not anytime soon".

Chinese are taking notes for Taiwan - there will be "defensive" weapon supplies and little else.

It will be bitter pill to swallow for West that Russia will not turn into North Korea no matter how much West struggles.

You know what's two-faced?

*Positioning tanks for siege. No we're not going to attack Ukraine........Ok, we're attacking Ukraine.

It's not a war.......it's an operation. Actually, this Ukrainian civilian genocide is an atrocity. What makes me want to puke is this poster saying children and seniors getting massacred is par for the course.

[PC2]

That's exactly what Russia did though.

It isn't Russia that sought to be disconnected from it.

When did Russia try to liberalize by implementing freedom of the press, free speech, and the freedom to publicly criticize the government without being executed or imprisoned?

That's what you need to have a successful liberal democracy and you guys have never seriously pursued those values. Yet you blame outside forces for not being eligible for Western or NATO inclusion...

[Huehuecoyotl]

As Shalcker said - there have been a number of deliveries from Turkey to closest airports, so we can assume more drones arrived.
P.S.
I think the number was 16 at the start, conflicting info in regards to this.

Bold is mine.

There it is again; cynical when anyone suggests something positive for the Ukraine. Blah, blah, fog of war etc. Then when it comes to believing Russia, suddenly the word "assume" makes an appearance.

You're a hypocrite, and you're posting in bad faith. If you understood the concept of shame, you'd be feeling it about now.

[Shalcker]

How are you so sure the current system isn't making golden billion for the West temporarily but is also providing better growth long-term?

Because clearly countries aren't satisfied with Western dominance - be that financial or cultural.
West had long stopped trying to get buy-ins - it is already in "punish dissenters" mode.
Western system was tolerated because it mostly respected their own rules, and getting alternative system up was a hassle.
But as West ramps up "participation costs" and ignores every rule in the book this calculation changes.

Fact is, the current system is beneficial and worthwhile to all participants or everyone else wouldn't participate.

There is plenty of coercion involved.

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When did Russia try to liberalize by implementing freedom of the press, free speech, and the freedom to publicly criticize the government without being executed or imprisoned?

90's. A lot of remnants remained long past that - Echo of Moscow and Dozhd were closed just this month.
"Novaya Gazeta" still operates.

That's what you need to have a successful liberal democracy and you guys have never seriously pursued those values. Yet you blame outside forces for not being eligible for Western or NATO inclusion...

Having "free press" didn't help; liberals wanted "strongman" to avoid communist comeback, so they went with Putin.

[Twdft]

A lot of things could happen that would allow Russia to avoid invading Ukraine.

How about simply not doing it...

War is not something that happens on its own.

[Xyonai]

France, alongside Turkey and Greece, are aiming to spearhead a Special Humanitarian Operation into Ukraine to help evacuate the besieged city of Mariupol. Article is short, so linking in full below.

French President Emmanuel Macron on Friday said France would spearhead an “exceptional humanitarian operation” alongside Turkey and Greece to evacuate the Ukrainian city of Mariupol, which has been under siege by Russian forces for three weeks.

“We are going to launch a humanitarian operation in conjunction with Turkey and Greece to evacuate all those who wish to leave Mariupol,” Macron told reporters following a two-day European Council summit.

Macron gave few details but said the operation would take place “the earlier the better,” and would be conducted “in coordination” with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian authorities. The French leader also said he was in touch with the mayor of Mariupol.

The French leader also said he would discuss the Mariupol operation with Russian President Vladimir Putin “within 48 to 72 hours.”

“I hope to be able to engage a maximum of stakeholders in this operation,” Macron said.

More than 100,000 people remain stranded in Mariupol, which is under near-continuous bombardment by Russian forces.

“I have a very special thought for the residents of Mariupol who are going through one of the greatest dramas,” Macron said. “That city of more than 400,000 residents today has only 150,000 who live there in dramatic situations.”

Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis confirmed on Friday that the operation was under discussion. He added that the Ukrainian city, which is home to a large Greek community, “is being tested by an unprecedented Russian attack which, unfortunately, makes no distinction between Ukrainian troops and civilians.”

[Shalcker]

How about simply not doing it...

Well, it didn't happen for quite a long time.

West was offered to give some room to allay Russian fears - and refused to do it even in smallest steps (even simply getting "No Ukraine in NATO" in writing).

And so long-nurtured fear prevailed.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Well, it didn't happen for quite a long time.

West was offered to give some room to allay Russian fears - and refused to do it even in smallest steps (even simply getting "No Ukraine in NATO" in writing).

And so long-nurtured fear prevailed.

Silly Ukraine, wanting to join NATO to protect themselves. Didn't they know that Russia had promised not to attack them when Ukraine gave up their nukes?

Oh, wait.

So stop trying to push blame elsewhere for this. You don't invade another country, you don't get turned into an international parriah. Grow up and take responsiblity.

[Mihalik]

Well, it didn't happen for quite a long time.

West was offered to give some room to allay Russian fears - and refused to do it even in smallest steps (even simply getting "No Ukraine in NATO" in writing).

And so long-nurtured fear prevailed.

Bullshit.

It has been made plenty clear that this has FUCKALL to do with NATO.

This is just simple empire building and ethnic cleansing. You want land and you want to erase a national identity you happen to dislike.

Stop lying.

[Kaleredar]

Bullshit.

It has been made plenty clear that this has FUCKALL to do with NATO.

This is just simple empire building and ethnic cleansing. You want land and you want to erase a national identity you happen to dislike.

Stop lying.

Get ready to hear about how the eastern Ukrainians they’re killing “already identified as Russians.”

So it’s not ethnic cleansing, they’re just… killing russians?

[Afrospinach]

That's a simplified version but it doesn't necessarily mean much because the reason developing countries enjoy high GDP growth is because they are so far behind. Also India and China's numbers are not worth the paper they are written since they are used for false propaganda.

Regardless it does fly in the face of the idea that somehow the west is subjugating the world for their own gain, especially when you consider the volume of trade and by the way that last on is easy. The US makes up roughly half of all global trade. Ironically China far far exceeds a likeness to a predator and subjugator. I hope that on a list that includes tampons and the like lubricant is also not in short supply.

Not the first to make this comparison but the closest country to Russia right now is north korea, who's biggest trade partners are..... CHINA AND INDIA. Time to celebrate?

That's exactly what Russia did though.

It isn't Russia that sought to be disconnected from it.

You are quite correct. Russia never sought to obliterate(possibly irreparably) their international standing by invading a sovereign nation and were banking on apathy. Cannot ever claim that somehow Russia is not directly responsibly for every sanction they now face, it is a response which somehow you seem to have trouble internalising but that kind of attitude would explain how Russia could possibly invade Ukraine in the first place.



We can call the bottom left of this chart "Russia" today, the overarching theme to the theory being that stupid people are the most dangerous type of person. Time to build a time machine.

How are you so sure the current system isn't making golden billion for the West temporarily but is also providing better growth long-term? Fact is, the current system is beneficial and worthwhile to all participants or everyone else wouldn't participate.

Just as a point of fact this can be clearly demonstrated on an economics 101 level graph.

Trade is mutually beneficial and a wide array of trading options even more so, it is not just about "winners and losers". The most assured way to lose is to...invade Ukraine, apparently. But seriously, isolation and tariffs hurt.

The way the US is "winning" is by having by far the highest innovation index of any country and no surprise most western countries score very well on any innovation index as well.

[dextersmith]

Because clearly countries aren't satisfied with Western dominance - be that financial or cultural.
West had long stopped trying to get buy-ins - it is already in "punish dissenters" mode.
Western system was tolerated because it mostly respected their own rules, and getting alternative system up was a hassle.
But as West ramps up "participation costs" and ignores every rule in the book this calculation changes.

Sanctions is to punish and discourage unprovoked attack, not for dissension. Stop playing the victim. You chose not to pursue an alternative system because knowingly being screwed was preferable to a hassle.

There is plenty of coercion involved.

Does your excuses come from a government handbook? Who coerced you into buying your western goods like your phone? What do you eat? McDonald's? Starbucks? You go fishing? Armchair crusaders.......

[Gaaz]

Russia lost another general.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60807538

That's what, seven now? Has Russia ever been a global superpower?

This is very misleading. General in Russian army is not the same as General in a European or US army. A General in Russia typically commands around 3000 men, sometimes a little more or a little less (as few as 500). Closest alternative would be the Colonel rank (3000-5000 typically), or Lieutenant-Colonel. If I remember correctly, there are around 700 Generals in the Russian army right now. Basically, lower ranked Generals, just like Colonels or Lieutenant-Colonels in the US or Europe, are expected to take part in combat missions. US for example lost 4 Colonels in a single bombing attack in Kabul, Afghanistan in 2010, if I remember correctly.

[Shalcker]

Silly Ukraine, wanting to join NATO to protect themselves. Didn't they know that Russia had promised not to attack them when Ukraine gave up their nukes?

Imagine Putin seriously, not as "propaganda", thinking "NATO has bases in Ukraine in all but the name - they just renamed them 'missions'; they develop biological weapons with American help; Ukrainian authorities nurture and arm Nazis there, and America clearly want to use them to attack Russia; Zelensky openly declares he might ignore Budapest Memorandum and drop Ukrainian non-nuclear status... what can i do to stop them???"

His own intelligence apparatus clearly confirmed his fears.

And even if he was wrong in those assumptions EU or US made no real effort to dispel them - "you're wrong, we aren't planning anything, honest!" didn't cut it.

And neither did Ukraine.

[PhaelixWW]

Imagine Putin seriously, not as "propaganda", thinking "NATO has bases in Ukraine in all but the name - they just renamed them 'missions'; they develop biological weapons with American help; Ukrainian authorities nurture and arm Nazis there, and America clearly want to use them to attack Russia; Zelensky openly declares he might ignore Budapest Memorandum and drop Ukrainian non-nuclear status... what can i do to stop them???"

So... paranoid delusions?

Right.

His own intelligence apparatus clearly confirmed his fears.

"Authoritarian is told what he wants to hear! This and more, coming up on the 10 o'clock news!"

And even if he was wrong in those assumptions EU or US made no real effort to dispel them - "you're wrong, we aren't planning anything, honest!" didn't cut it.

That's because there's little point in trying too strenuously to disprove an obviously bunk conspiracy theory, because people prone to believing them don't generally listen to the truth, regardless.

[Shalcker]

Sanctions is to punish and discourage unprovoked attack, not for dissension. Stop playing the victim. You chose not to pursue an alternative system because knowingly being screwed was preferable to a hassle.

That doesn't make any sense.

Does your excuses come from a government handbook? Who coerced you into buying your western goods like your phone?

*checks* My non-smart phone is clearly made in China. As does my tablet (it is made by US-sanctioned Huawei).

What do you eat? McDonald's? Starbucks?

I buy food in nearest Russian Pyaterochka; i don't eat in fast food.

[dextersmith]

Having "free press" didn't help; liberals wanted "strongman" to avoid communist comeback, so they went with Putin.

Getting the news censored, arrested for speaking out, running out of basic groceries, billionaires have to live like millionaires. How's Putin working out?

[DingDongKing]

That doesn't make any sense.

*checks* My non-smart phone is clearly made in China. As does my tablet (it is made by US-sanctioned Huawei).

I buy food in nearest Russian Pyaterochka; i don't eat in fast food.

Cool, so you’ll do okay behind the iron curtain. Hopefully Russia pulls a North Korea on the internet front so that we don’t have to hear from you ever again.