Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Okacz]

West went with instant "nuclear economic option" before any "infringements" you mention happened.

Past that it doesn't matter what you do - war will end the way Russia wants it to end because even going that far you're powerless to prevent that.

Or it's going to end the way it ends, with all factors involved, not only Russias wishes. Same with sanctions. There was no nuclear option, people were actually angry that most of the politicians started with only tiniest ones and moved to stuff like SWIFT block after quite some time. There was time for you guys to think things over. Instead, apparently the chosen option was "devastation of Ukraine is top priority, no matter that it will come with the price of Russia being cut from western politics, trade and culture". Hey, if you never wanted those things in the first place all you had to do was to tell the West.

[Shalcker]

The West didn't force you to invade Ukraine. You did that unilaterally.

West provided no acceptable solution to Ukrainian problem.

So, Russia will solve it the Russian way, with no regard to Western opinions.

[Elegiac]

Or it's going to end the way it ends, with all factors involved, not only Russias wishes. Same with sanctions. There was no nuclear option, people were actually angry that most of the politicians started with only tiniest ones and moved to stuff like SWIFT block after quite some time. There was time for you guys to think things over. Instead, apparently the chosen option was "devastation of Ukraine is top priority, no matter that it will come with the price of Russia being cut from western politics, trade and culture". Hey, if you never wanted those things in the first place all you had to do was to tell the West.

Moreover, as you mentioned there was the previous precedent of much lighter sanctions being levied after Crimea was invaded and illegally annexed.

There have been more than adequate opportunities for Russia to climb down. It didn't, so harsher responses are entirely appropriate.

[Shalcker]

Or it's going to end the way it ends, with all factors involved, not only Russias wishes. Same with sanctions. There was no nuclear option, people were actually angry that most of the politicians started with only tiniest ones and moved to stuff like SWIFT block after quite some time. There was time for you guys to think things over. Instead, apparently the chosen option was "devastation of Ukraine is top priority, no matter that it will come with the price of Russia being cut from western politics, trade and culture". Hey, if you never wanted those things in the first place all you had to do was to tell the West.

Western politics and culture have been moving into garbage bin for a while; cutting them is benefit.

Western trade is more painful, but not irreplaceable over time.

[Elegiac]

West provided no acceptable solution to Ukrainian problem.

The Ukrainian problem which wasn't your business to start with given that it is an independent and sovereign entity.

You could have done nothing and ended up better off than you are now. Simple as that.

[Azadina]

Past that it doesn't matter what you do - war will end the way Russia wants it to end because even going that far you're powerless to prevent that.

As intended.

There's difference between powerless and restraint. Russia doesn't know what the latter even means, which explains your confusion. West is entirely capable of chopping up any remaining terrorist in Ukraine, in extremely short order. I'm not sure why you keep trying to push your luck about it. Take the sanctions as the cost of the lesson.

[Specialka]

Western politics and culture have been moving into garbage bin for a while; cutting them is benefit.

Western trade is more painful, but not irreplaceable over time.

US politics and culture. Do not conflate EU with US on that front.

[Shalcker]

The Ukrainian problem which wasn't your business to start with given that it is an independent and sovereign entity.

Ukraine wasn't your business to begin with.

You don't border them, your trade with them is miniscule, all you use them for is to recycle outdated arms to pass "loaned" money back to your MIC.

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There's difference between powerless and restraint. Russia doesn't know what the latter even means, which explains your confusion. West is entirely capable of chopping up any remaining terrorist in Ukraine, in extremely short order. I'm not sure why you keep trying to push your luck about it. Take the sanctions as the cost of the lesson.

Because if it will come to that then world fully deserves what will follow.

[Elegiac]

Ukraine wasn't your business to begin with.

Yeah, and? The West isn't using a problem they have no business with as an excuse to invade Ukraine. You are.

You've already been warned about whataboutism, habibi:

If your only argument starts with "What about...", you don't have any.

[Okacz]

Ukraine wasn't your business to begin with.

You don't border them, your trade with them is miniscule, all you use them for is to recycle outdated arms to pass "loaned" money back to your MIC.

We... do? You know Ukraine has borders with NATO as well, right? And Russia isn't the only country with historical and cultural ties to it? Also, all that isn't actually important, since Ukraine is its own country that has a right to be independent and chose whoever it wishes to deal with?

Because if it will come to that then world fully deserves what will follow.

At this point you're just quoting Metal Gear Rising, arent you.

[Azadina]

Because if it will come to that then world fully deserves what will follow.

Nonsense. In reality what would happen is you lose them all, and Ukraine stays Ukraine. Your nonsensical bluff about suicide cult doesn't phase me.

You know, and in the minor case you're really so collectively stupid as a nation to go full suicide cult; then by all means. Then at least the world is free of your terrorism, rather than having to put up with it constantly for god knows how many generations to come.

[Shalcker]

Nonsense. In reality what would happen is you lose them all, and Ukraine stays Ukraine. Your nonsensical bluff about suicide cult doesn't phase me.

Good thing you aren't making decisions.

So far cooler heads that actually understand consequences of such move prevail.

[Canpinter]

Because if it will come to that then world fully deserves what will follow.

How is this not a banable thinly veiled threat of violence?

[Shadowferal]

Because if it will come to that then world fully deserves what will follow.

The world huh?
You mean "your world."

[Shalcker]

We... do? You know Ukraine has borders with NATO as well, right? And Russia isn't the only country with historical and cultural ties to it?

Centuries of history compared with... ten? Twenty?

Also, all that isn't actually important, since Ukraine is its own country that has a right to be independent and chose whoever it wishes to deal with?

And so does Russia. Refer back to Melian dialogue upthread.

[Mekh]

Western politics and culture have been moving into garbage bin for a while; cutting them is benefit.

You still angry, we are trying to stop having a problem with gay people?

[Azadina]

Good thing you aren't making decisions.

So far cooler heads that actually understand consequences of such move prevail.

Good for Russia that is, enjoy it while it lasts. At some point people will collectively get tired of dealing with the same shit all the time, and simply call that nonsensical bluff you drum at every chance. Maybe then you'll sit back down to the table and act like human beings instead.

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How is this not a banable thinly veiled threat of violence?

Because it's nonsense, and the only nonsense Russia drums up all the time.

[Elegiac]

And so does Russia. Refer back to Melian dialogue upthread.

The one in which you compare Russia to Athens despite the fact Athens lost the Peloponnesian War due to its imperial ambitions? Rofl.

Wars of conquest are not acceptable in the modern world order because it is irreconcilable with the principle of sovereign self-determination. So bringing up historical propaganda written by a pederast isn't particularly relevant to begin with, and I say that as an ethnic Greek.

[Okacz]

Centuries of history compared with... ten? Twenty?

And so does Russia. Refer back to Melian dialogue upthread.

Those centuries don't just belong to you. Russia might remember Holodomor fondly, when they attempted to starve out an entire country and almost succeeded. Other countries Ukraine borders with also share centuries of history and cultures with its people. The difference is that they don't use it as an excuse to invade. Because, as someone wisely pointed out, wars of conquest in this day and age are considered red card for any diplomatic ties.

The fact that you don't accept this fact as an axiom is actually quite fascinating. Perhaps it prevents any attempts at dialogue? For starters, if any western country attempted a similar invasion, for instance Denmark launching a full-scale invasion at England to reestablish Danelaw - that would also shock the entire world, and definitely result in sanctions. You are not alone here, Russia. No one is getting thumbs up for wars of conquest anymore.

As for the "As so does russia" part, yeah, clearly you can do whatever you want. Just like a man can kick a dog. However, in both scenarios, it would rightfully cause everyone to look at the subject as a monster and ostracize him. And due to pointlessly reckless behaviour, said man might lose a leg as a result. I used the word "independent" to point out that any invasion on Ukraine is unjust warmongering that has little to do with all the propaganda-filled reasons russia brings up. Especially the one with saving it from drug-users, what in the fuck was that about?

[Shalcker]

The one in which you compare Russia to Athens despite the fact Athens lost the Peloponnesian War due to its imperial ambitions? Rofl.

Any future fate awaiting Russia is not going to save Ukraine right now.

Wars of conquest are not acceptable in the modern world order because it is irreconcilable with the principle of sovereign self-determination.

Well, guess that principle dies today. Among many other things.

Not that it ever was that strong, like with Bay of Pigs/Cuban missile crisis.