Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Shadowferal]

Any future fate awaiting Russia is not going to save Ukraine right now.

Nor will you take any comfort from such a fate.
But then isn't that what you hope? To share the pain that you already feel?

[Elegiac]

Any future fate awaiting Russia is not going to save Ukraine right now.

So you do acknowledge that this is ultimately going to end badly for Russia regardless of what happens to Ukraine. Congratulations on arriving at the same page as the rest of us.

Well, guess that principle dies today.

It hasn't, is the thing, which is why the response to your war of conquest has been so harsh and entirely justified to boot.

Still doesn't make you claiming might makes right and then pointing at the example of an empire that destroyed itself because it tried to exercise might any less hilarious.

Not that it ever was that strong, like with Bay of Pigs/Cuban missile crisis.

More whataboutism. Rofl.

[Canpinter]

Any future fate awaiting Russia is not going to save Ukraine right now.

The Ukrainians with Western aid seem to be saving themselves now it's just a question if they can push the Russian invaders out.

[Shalcker]

The fact that you don't accept this fact as an axiom is actually quite fascinating.

It's called Realism.

Even if it isn't popular in Western politics it still has adherents among diplomats and scholars of various countries. Like Russia.

No one is getting thumbs up for wars of conquest anymore.

Why would any war of conquest need "thumbs up"? They pretty much never were outside of allies of conquerors.

Everyone would prefer not to suffer invasion - or even not to initiate one, if they could reach their goals through other means. That modern world cannot prevent it is testament to it's fragility.

[Saradain]

Any future fate awaiting Russia is not going to save Ukraine right now.

Well, guess that principle dies today. Among many other things.

Not that it ever was that strong, like with Bay of Pigs/Cuban missile crisis.

Last words. 'Til the bitter end.

And spiced up with whataboutism. Again.

[Poopymonster]

You still angry, we are trying to stop having a problem with gay people?

Gay people don't create cannon fodder. How can Glorious Mother Russia retake her place as Best Country in World without a horde of cannon fodder to pile up as barricades to protect our forces?

As American Singer and Hero proclaimed: Be the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box!

[Breccia]

Monday morning in Moscow and MoEx stocks are sinking again.

Well I mean, how bad could it be?

(checks 7 hours later)

Yep, they went down alright. Looks like another 2% loss, not exactly what I'd call a crash, but it is proof the Russian government can't keep the value aloft.

From the war Russia started to today, MOEX has lost 40% of its value. Russian stocks are the worst performers in the world in 2022.

Worth noting:
1) Russia is rigging the game, by making it illegal for foreigners to sell off, and they're still losing. Not even Russia believes in Russia.
2) Also, Russia put aside $10 billion to stabilize the market. The market is falling and they aren't using the money.
3) Russia's largest energy providers also lost money.
4) Not directly related but worth noting: India announced they will not be buying oil in rupees. That's yet another blow to Russia's oncoming recession.

This is not a real stock market. This is not a sustainable model. Russia is lettings its rich dump their worthless assets first, demonstrating they no longer wish to be viewed as a source of foreign investment. Fortunately the number of sanctions applied for Russia's unprovoked war make that easy to do. It's a shame for those people investing in Russia have lost 40% and will be required to lose more, and of course, any Russian civilians who had investments in their own country just got screwed too, just not as badly.

[XDurionX]

Do you think Ukraine/EU not ceding an inch to Russia was good idea now that you know it meant war?

Nothing short of military aggression justifies what russia is doing. This is a nonargument.

[Okacz]

Why would any war of conquest need "thumbs up"? They pretty much never were outside of allies of conquerors.

Here's the question tho. Do you consider it worth it? Imagine your victory, you killed millions of people, several cities that you considered russian (and which were popular tourist destination of your citizens) are now destroyed. You control the wasteland that was Ukraine. In return, you are still cut out from the international payment systems, western trade, diplomacy and culture. You made NATO more vary of your movements, and have put your rival on the "ready" state, making it establish more bases, train more soldiers, send more weapons to the surrounding countries. You lost a ton of equipment, tanks, soldiers, high-ranking generals. Instead, you have what's left of Ukraine after you peacefully special operationed it. Imaginary scenario, since so far it's not going perfect for you guys.

According to Realism, was it worth it? Did you gain more power in that territory than you have lost in every other respect? Is anything... better now, for anyone in Russia? Because if it isn't, that goes against Realism, your actions made you less powerful than you were before. Naive question perhaps, but I'd like to know your answer.

[Elegiac]

It's called Realism.

No it isn't.

This is more similar to weltpolitik than realpolitik. The latter is contingent on being able to assess risk versus national interest, and starting self-destructive tours de force like the invasion of Ukraine for very little ostensible benefit, if any, directly contradicts that.

You can't even get basic political terms right when trying to justify this nonsense. Rofl.

[Saradain]

This right in. Apparently Irpin, a city next to Kyiv has been re-taken for Ukraine, according to its mayor Oleksandr Markušyn.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...or-2022-03-28/

I can think of a WOTLK era achievement and real life quote it is based on "We're not retreating, we're just advancing in a different direction."

[Slant]

Ukraine wasn't your business to begin with.

Neither is Ukraine Russia's business to begin with. Your argument fails on the premise that you seem to think it's Russia's natural right to dictate other nations what to do. That is not how the world works. Even if I can hear your whataboutism screaming at the top of your lung through the ban, the West isn't so much dictating other countries what to do as in it's simply stopping to deal with countries that don't behave. You know this as "sanctions". But ultimately, that's what it is. The West refusing to interact with a nation in certain areas.

To put it into an analogy that you can understand: If someone tries to prevent a mutual friend from talking to me with threats, eventually I will stop calling him. Him getting pissed off at being ignored by me is not my problem. And him starting to beat up that mutual friend as a result is not going to entice me to socially interact with him again. And if this mutual friend comes to me and asks for help, I'm going to give it to him. Because I hate injustices.

That's the situation in a nutshell.

And that Russia simpily has zero incentive that it could sanction anyone with is only Russia's problem. Invading as an alternative to soft power tools to get your wishes is not acceptable.

If it was, Russia would've been deleted already. Alas, it's Russia's right as a sovereign nation to do whatever the hell they want inside their own borders. Just like it is Ukraine's right to do whatever they want inside their borders. That includes and is certainly not limited to who they want to sign treaties with.

Another thing, while we're on the subject. That Russia isn't being attacked by NATO has zero to do with deterrents or Russia being strong. It has everything to do with the West actually trying to live by the rule of law. We don't always get it right (Thanks, USA, at least now you realise Iraq wasn't necessary...), but at least we try.

Need proof? NATO is not moving in on Russia right now. Russia is at the weakest it ever was in the past hundred years or so. And yet, nobody is even remotely interested in the idea of waltzing to Moscow. Why? Because Russia has nothing of interest to anyone. Additionally, not least of all, NATO is a defensive pact. Designed against Russia as a threat, sure. But if you feel treated unfairly why NATO sees Russia as the main adversary... well, have you looked at Ukraine recently? Once they kick Russia out of Ukraine, you can bet your sweet ass that Ukraine is going to get fasttracked into both NATO and the EU, removing it from Russia's little sphere of influence permanently. Belarus' population is already getting really interested in the concept of "What do you mean, we don't have to be Russia's vassal? Tell me more..."

[Canpinter]

This right in. Apparently Irpin, a city next to Kyiv has been re-taken for Ukraine, according to its mayor Oleksandr Markušyn.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...or-2022-03-28/

I can think of a WOTLK era achievement and real life quote it is based on "We're not retreating, we're just advancing in a different direction."

Great news let's just hope Ukraine has enough heavy equipment left to take on the areas in western Ukraine that Russia has had time to fortify and dig in.

[Makabreska]

Here's the question tho. Do you consider it worth it? Imagine your victory, you killed millions of people, several cities that you considered russian (and which were popular tourist destination of your citizens) are now destroyed. You control the wasteland that was Ukraine. In return, you are still cut out from the international payment systems, western trade, diplomacy and culture. You made NATO more vary of your movements, and have put your rival on the "ready" state, making it establish more bases, train more soldiers, send more weapons to the surrounding countries. You lost a ton of equipment, tanks, soldiers, high-ranking generals. Instead, you have what's left of Ukraine after you peacefully special operationed it. Imaginary scenario, since so far it's not going perfect for you guys.

According to Realism, was it worth it? Did you gain more power in that territory than you have lost in every other respect? Is anything... better now, for anyone in Russia? Because if it isn't, that goes against Realism, your actions made you less powerful than you were before. Naive question perhaps, but I'd like to know your answer.

Futile. The answer he would give you would be "Russia did not suffer these losses and will do just fine w/o international connections". But alas, banned again!

[Okacz]

Futile. The answer he would give you would be "Russia did not suffer these losses and will do just fine w/o international connections". But alas, banned again!

Pity, that one was my favourite. Seemed to believe a lot of that stuff.

[Breccia]

Germany considers making the Russian Z illegal.

"We've seen what wearing a symbol like that means before," Germany said, "and fuck that scheisse."

Individuals who display the letter "Z" in Germany to symbolise support for Russia's war in Ukraine could be liable to prosecution, an Interior Ministry spokesperson said on Monday.

The interior minister for the state of Berlin said earlier that city authorities would jump on cases of the Z symbol being used to endorse Russia's aggression, following announcements by Bavaria and Lower Saxony that they too would punish such acts.

A spokesperson for the federal government's Interior Ministry told reporters: "The letter Z as such is of course not forbidden, but its use may in individual cases constitute an endorsement of the Russian war of aggression."

"The Russian war of aggression on the Ukraine is a criminal act, and whoever publicly approves of this war of aggression can also make himself liable to prosecution," the Interior Ministry spokesperson told a regular government news conference.

"The federal security authorities have an eye on this, and in this respect we welcome the announcement that several federal states will also examine in individual cases whether this could be a criminal act and to take action accordingly," he said.

"But what about my freedom of speech?"

Encouragement of hatred, violence, crimes and genocide are oftentimes considered exceptions. You're typically not protected from yelling "Fire!" in a crowded war zone.

"Well, then, why isn't it illegal to display the Nazi flag?"

It is. Yeah, the Germans are balls-deep into proving they've learned a lesson Putin still hasn't.

"Well it's legal in the USA."

It is, but just see what happens when you try that shit outside of a Trump rally. You're likely to get Will Smith'd.

[Saradain]

Great news let's just hope Ukraine has enough heavy equipment left to take on the areas in western Ukraine that Russia has had time to fortify and dig in.

I am confident the collapsing morale and death spree of russian officers are going to be their downfall. No point for young men to get themselves killed even if they are heavily equipped when they know they're gonna be trapped and isolated. And facing a tide of very pissed off ukrainians who might not have the restraint left to treat them as proper POWs instead of target practise.

I'm sure Russia is capturing the civilians from ukraine, now including what, 2000 children (from Mariupol was it?) to trade for their soldiers. No other reason to wildly relocate masses of ukrainians to russian territory but to pathetically use them as ransom.

[Shrouded]

Ahh, maybe this thread can be useful for a few days again now!

Germany considers making the Russian Z illegal.

"We've seen what wearing a symbol like that means before," Germany said, "and fuck that scheisse."

Germany's response to the Russian invasion hasn't been perfect, but they know a thing or two about the power of nationalistic symbolism so it's great to see them nip this in the bud and it sends a pretty strong message about it to the rest of the world too.

[Slant]

Germany considers making the Russian Z illegal.

"We've seen what wearing a symbol like that means before," Germany said, "and fuck that scheisse."



"But what about my freedom of speech?"

Encouragement of hatred, violence, crimes and genocide are oftentimes considered exceptions. You're typically not protected from yelling "Fire!" in a crowded war zone.

"Well, then, why isn't it illegal to display the Nazi flag?"

It is. Yeah, the Germans are balls-deep into proving they've learned a lesson Putin still hasn't.

"Well it's legal in the USA."

It is, but just see what happens when you try that shit outside of a Trump rally. You're likely to get Will Smith'd.

It's less than 24h, I love that it's a verb already hahahahaha

Also, yeah. Fuck that shit. Mind you, it's important to note that showing symbology for educational purposes is still allowed. The goal is strictly to remove symbolism as a method to rally people behind ideologies that promote hatred, violence, genocide and the like...

[Breccia]

it's important to note that showing symbology for educational purposes is still allowed.

There's also a clause for art. The Z-thing is clearly about blatant support of Putin's war crimes, not Zorro movies.