Russian invasion of Ukraine

[PhaelixWW]

So how would Ukraine join? they are always in active conflict.

The conflict would end first.

[Shadowferal]

Putin needs to accept reality. He lost. Which reflects the reality of another loser. Heck, he probably thought Trump would still be president giving him a helping hand.

[Draco-Onis]

That's not how NATO works, though, is the thing. Individual countries might join in, but not NATO. Because that's not how it operates.

It would intervene under "humanitarian" reasons see Yugoslavia.

[Slant]

Again do you want to take that gamble? that Putin a guy that has dominated Russia for 3 decades hasn't replaced everyone in that chain of command that might defy him.

Dude, it has happened before. Russian operators have prevented a nuclear war before. Say what you will about Putin, the average Russian is not suicidal. They know just as well as every US nuke silo operator what the consequences of launching their missile is. You don't sit next to a nuclear missile without developing some very philosophical thoughts about what would happen if you just... out of boredom, pressed the button. Yes, I'd take that gamble at this point.

[Draco-Onis]

The conflict would end first.

So the plan is to make a deal with Russia for neutrality then violate it to join NATO and hope there is no blowback?

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Dude, it has happened before. Russian operators have prevented a nuclear war before. Say what you will about Putin, the average Russian is not suicidal. They know just as well as every US nuke silo operator what the consequences of launching their missile is. You don't sit next to a nuclear missile without developing some very philosophical thoughts about what would happen if you just... out of boredom, pressed the button. Yes, I'd take that gamble at this point.

So you don't know the difference between Yeltsin administration and Putin's? good for you for wanting to gamble the end of the world over Ukraine.

[Slant]

You say that like we're not already playing that gamble.

And this, so much this. It doesn't actually matter what we do. Putin is going to talk shit about the West no matter what we do. If we weren't supporting Ukraine with arms, he'd talk shit about how we abandon our allies and how Russia is the only hope of salvation. Now he's saying Ukraine is a puppet for the West. If NATO was in Ukraine, he'd talk about defending the motherland. If we deleted the West entirely, he'd claim we've hidden on the moon and are planning to nuke the entire Earth or some other bullshit.

Dude's bonkers.

[Santti]

So the plan is to make a deal with Russia for neutrality then violate it to join NATO and hope there is no blowback?

If Ukraine were to sign such a treaty, I kinda doubt NATO would even accept them at that point. And even if they were, there'd be no nukes, still.

[Easo]

So the plan is to make a deal with Russia for neutrality then violate it to join NATO and hope there is no blowback?

I am quite sure the plan is or has changed to "Ukraine does not join NATO in any foreseeable future".

[Draco-Onis]

If Ukraine would sign such a treaty, I kinda doubt NATO would even accept them at that point. And even if they were, there'd be no nukes, still.

There's no way Russia would sign a peace deal without a neutrality clause of some sort, this plan isn't realistic.

[PhaelixWW]

So the plan is to make a deal with Russia for neutrality then violate it to join NATO and hope there is no blowback?

What is this random strawman you've created?

[Draco-Onis]

What is this random strawman you've created?

It's not random perhaps you misunderstood, the premise is NATO speeds up Ukraine joining in or does it secretly after things have calmed down.

[Santti]

There's no way Russia would sign a peace deal without a neutrality clause of some sort, this plan isn't realistic.

We'll just have to see. Russia is walking back on their demands already. Like they don't demand for "denazification" anymore, and would allow Ukraine to join EU.

[Slant]

So the plan is to make a deal with Russia for neutrality then violate it to join NATO and hope there is no blowback?

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So you don't know the difference between Yeltsin administration and Putin's? good for you for wanting to gamble the end of the world over Uklraine.

Violating a treaty doesn't give Russia permission to invade another sovereign nation. Holy shit, do you know what that kinda fucked up logic would mean for England right about now? Or whenever it is they're planning to break the GFA. Haha, you're almost as funny as Shalcker... "Blowback" is a nice euphemism for executing civilian families in their cars...

I don't give a shit what you think I know or don't know. I'm moderately certain that my gamble in Putin doing whatever the fuck he wants regardless of what other countries do is pretty safe. See, it's not so much about a gamble of if he wants to nuke us or not. I'm pretty sure he's already made up his mind to nuke someone at some point. But I'm equally certain that it won't come to that, because the second a nuclear missile leaves a Russian silo, Russia's fate is sealed and 30 mins later the country is no more. And Russian generals probably would like to not live in a dystopian nuclear fallout zone.

[Hammerfest]

Biden was right. The words of a President DO matter...

[PhaelixWW]

It's not random perhaps you misunderstood, the premise is NATO speeds up Ukraine joining in after things have calmed down.

And yet it's only your assertion that the only possible way that things can "calm down" is on the condition of neutrality.

[Breccia]

It kinda feels like war crimes are getting normalized considering with how much Russia will get away with at the end of the day.

There is a difference between "normalized" and "accepted". The world has proven Ukraine is not worth going to war for. Sadly, Putin committing war crimes won't change that.

If he's ousted in a coup and thrown over the border into, say, Finland with a note "we don't want him back" it's a different story.

[Draco-Onis]

Violating a treaty doesn't give Russia permission to invade another sovereign nation.

A treaty for peace would be centered on Ukraine staying neutral, I am not sure what drugs you are on.

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And yet it's only your assertion that the only possible way that things can "calm down" is on the condition of neutrality.

NATO doesn't take in countries who are involved in hostile actions unless that can change, I don't see how Ukraine magically joins NATO.

[PhaelixWW]

Biden was right. The words of a President DO matter...

Yeah, Putin's a fucking monster and the Russian people should remove him from his position of power.

Also, maybe keep your flat-earther conservative conspiracy theory nonsense out of yet another thread, m'kay?

[Zaydin]

Ukraine joining NATO pretty much verifies all of Putin's fears, maybe you want to risk the end of the human race for Ukraine I am not.

NATO is a defensive alliance and it has become readily apparent that Ukraine needs to be part of it to deter future Russian aggression.

Furthermore, the word of the Russian government is worth as much as Monopoly money and Ukraine would be wise not to trust a word Putin says.

[Slant]

A treaty for peace would be centered on Ukraine staying neutral, I am not sure what drugs you are on.

Russia has no say in what Ukraine does. Get it into your head. Ukraine is a sovereign, independent nation. I think we've established that by Ukraine wiping the floor with the Russian military. And whatever shitty deal the Soviet Union made with Ukraine 30 years ago, it'll get amended. Probably with a "btw, this shit is cancelled, kthxbye!"

See, the funny bit here is... Ukraine didn't violate the treaty. Russia did. By invading Ukraine. Any talk about honoring the treaty is in bad faith at this point.