1. #13981
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Again do you want to take that gamble? that Putin a guy that has dominated Russia for 3 decades hasn't replaced everyone in that chain of command that might defy him.
    You say that like we're not already playing that gamble.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  2. #13982
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampiregenesis View Post
    The real trouble for Ukraine starts now that Mariupol has fallen, Kyiv looks like a distraction right now, it's probably too early to judge this war.
    Mariupol is not fallen yet, but close to it, ~2.5 city districts left (Azovstal steel mill, Primorskoye to the left at sea and part of the central one). Few more days at least, though organized resistance, of course, lessens the more is captured.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydin View Post
    Honestly NATO should fast track membership for Ukraine before Russia can do something about it when the time comes.
    You cannot join NATO if you have unresolved territorial issues, fast track or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    You say that like we're not already playing that gamble.
    Whole MiG hot potato back and forth deal proved no one wants increased chance of risk. Are we gambling? Up to a point, imho, but the line drawn seems to be quite clear and NATO does not want to overstep it.
    Last edited by Easo; 2022-03-28 at 08:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  3. #13983
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    So how would Ukraine join? they are always in active conflict.
    The conflict would end first.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  4. #13984
    Putin needs to accept reality. He lost. Which reflects the reality of another loser. Heck, he probably thought Trump would still be president giving him a helping hand.

  5. #13985
    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    That's not how NATO works, though, is the thing. Individual countries might join in, but not NATO. Because that's not how it operates.
    It would intervene under "humanitarian" reasons see Yugoslavia.

  6. #13986
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Again do you want to take that gamble? that Putin a guy that has dominated Russia for 3 decades hasn't replaced everyone in that chain of command that might defy him.
    Dude, it has happened before. Russian operators have prevented a nuclear war before. Say what you will about Putin, the average Russian is not suicidal. They know just as well as every US nuke silo operator what the consequences of launching their missile is. You don't sit next to a nuclear missile without developing some very philosophical thoughts about what would happen if you just... out of boredom, pressed the button. Yes, I'd take that gamble at this point.
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  7. #13987
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    The conflict would end first.
    So the plan is to make a deal with Russia for neutrality then violate it to join NATO and hope there is no blowback?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Dude, it has happened before. Russian operators have prevented a nuclear war before. Say what you will about Putin, the average Russian is not suicidal. They know just as well as every US nuke silo operator what the consequences of launching their missile is. You don't sit next to a nuclear missile without developing some very philosophical thoughts about what would happen if you just... out of boredom, pressed the button. Yes, I'd take that gamble at this point.
    So you don't know the difference between Yeltsin administration and Putin's? good for you for wanting to gamble the end of the world over Ukraine.

  8. #13988
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    You say that like we're not already playing that gamble.
    And this, so much this. It doesn't actually matter what we do. Putin is going to talk shit about the West no matter what we do. If we weren't supporting Ukraine with arms, he'd talk shit about how we abandon our allies and how Russia is the only hope of salvation. Now he's saying Ukraine is a puppet for the West. If NATO was in Ukraine, he'd talk about defending the motherland. If we deleted the West entirely, he'd claim we've hidden on the moon and are planning to nuke the entire Earth or some other bullshit.

    Dude's bonkers.
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  9. #13989
    Over 9000! Santti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    So the plan is to make a deal with Russia for neutrality then violate it to join NATO and hope there is no blowback?
    If Ukraine were to sign such a treaty, I kinda doubt NATO would even accept them at that point. And even if they were, there'd be no nukes, still.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    And again, let’s presume equity in schools is achievable. Then why should a parent read to a child?

  10. #13990
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    So the plan is to make a deal with Russia for neutrality then violate it to join NATO and hope there is no blowback?
    I am quite sure the plan is or has changed to "Ukraine does not join NATO in any foreseeable future".
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  11. #13991
    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    If Ukraine would sign such a treaty, I kinda doubt NATO would even accept them at that point. And even if they were, there'd be no nukes, still.
    There's no way Russia would sign a peace deal without a neutrality clause of some sort, this plan isn't realistic.

  12. #13992
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    So the plan is to make a deal with Russia for neutrality then violate it to join NATO and hope there is no blowback?
    What is this random strawman you've created?


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  13. #13993
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    What is this random strawman you've created?
    It's not random perhaps you misunderstood, the premise is NATO speeds up Ukraine joining in or does it secretly after things have calmed down.

  14. #13994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    There's no way Russia would sign a peace deal without a neutrality clause of some sort, this plan isn't realistic.
    We'll just have to see. Russia is walking back on their demands already. Like they don't demand for "denazification" anymore, and would allow Ukraine to join EU.
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    And again, let’s presume equity in schools is achievable. Then why should a parent read to a child?

  15. #13995
    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    So the plan is to make a deal with Russia for neutrality then violate it to join NATO and hope there is no blowback?

    - - - Updated - - -

    So you don't know the difference between Yeltsin administration and Putin's? good for you for wanting to gamble the end of the world over Uklraine.
    Violating a treaty doesn't give Russia permission to invade another sovereign nation. Holy shit, do you know what that kinda fucked up logic would mean for England right about now? Or whenever it is they're planning to break the GFA. Haha, you're almost as funny as Shalcker... "Blowback" is a nice euphemism for executing civilian families in their cars...

    I don't give a shit what you think I know or don't know. I'm moderately certain that my gamble in Putin doing whatever the fuck he wants regardless of what other countries do is pretty safe. See, it's not so much about a gamble of if he wants to nuke us or not. I'm pretty sure he's already made up his mind to nuke someone at some point. But I'm equally certain that it won't come to that, because the second a nuclear missile leaves a Russian silo, Russia's fate is sealed and 30 mins later the country is no more. And Russian generals probably would like to not live in a dystopian nuclear fallout zone.
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  16. #13996
    Banned Hammerfest's Avatar
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    Biden was right. The words of a President DO matter...


  17. #13997
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    It's not random perhaps you misunderstood, the premise is NATO speeds up Ukraine joining in after things have calmed down.
    And yet it's only your assertion that the only possible way that things can "calm down" is on the condition of neutrality.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  18. #13998
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    It kinda feels like war crimes are getting normalized considering with how much Russia will get away with at the end of the day.
    There is a difference between "normalized" and "accepted". The world has proven Ukraine is not worth going to war for. Sadly, Putin committing war crimes won't change that.

    If he's ousted in a coup and thrown over the border into, say, Finland with a note "we don't want him back" it's a different story.

  19. #13999
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Violating a treaty doesn't give Russia permission to invade another sovereign nation.
    A treaty for peace would be centered on Ukraine staying neutral, I am not sure what drugs you are on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    And yet it's only your assertion that the only possible way that things can "calm down" is on the condition of neutrality.
    NATO doesn't take in countries who are involved in hostile actions unless that can change, I don't see how Ukraine magically joins NATO.

  20. #14000
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfest View Post
    Biden was right. The words of a President DO matter...
    Yeah, Putin's a fucking monster and the Russian people should remove him from his position of power.

    Also, maybe keep your flat-earther conservative conspiracy theory nonsense out of yet another thread, m'kay?


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

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