Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Mihalik]

Alternatively: They're simply staying out of it altogether. It's not their fight. It's not their problem. They're not going to act "imperially" by getting involved in something that they're not involved with.

Not defending the actions or anything, but that's how it makes sense to me as I've been following some of these developments.

On some level, sure...but... "I'm too busy to care about genocide" or "This particular genocide doesn't affect me, so I won't even symbolically bother to press a button" is not the best excuse I've ever heard.

Like I'm trying really hard, but I have the feeling that I'm developing just a tiny bit of resentment towards this attitude.

[Edge-]

On some level, sure...but... "I'm too busy to care about genocide" or "This particular genocide doesn't affect me, so I won't even symbolically bother to press a button" is not the best excuse I've ever heard.

It's not, and I wasn't arguing (at least from our perspective) that it is. But it also sorta kinda doesn't really matter, as with much of what the UN does. Especially when it comes to members on the security council, of which they are a permanent one.

[Mihalik]

It's not, and I wasn't arguing (at least from our perspective) that it is. But it also sorta kinda doesn't really matter, as with much of what the UN does. Especially when it comes to members on the security council, of which they are a permanent one.

It matters tho inside Russia. It helps Putin's domestic narrative that this is some sort of proxy war between the West and Russia, and is being used to seed doubt about whether they are truly in the wrong or not.

[Kallisto]

Here's another thing I'm struggling with.

The attitude of the developing world. Especially Latin American nations such as Mexico, Brazil etc.

There's a lot of "not giving a fuck" not even on a lip service level towards what Russia is doing. I understand that for some developing world nations cutting ties with Russia or upsetting Russia carries large economic and security risks, too large to assume. But nations like the ones I mentioned above have no meaningful economic, political or security ties to Russia, the unwillingness to join the sanctions or even to vote for instead of abstaining from what is really just a symbolic vote to me shows a shocking degree of lack of moral consistency.

They decry western imperialism and the undue influence of the west, but are unwilling to even symbolically stand with a fellow non western nation that finds itself in a situation worse than their own, just because incidentally the west happens to back them.

I'm like...Yes, America bad. But why are you all unable to find a moral fiber here, not for America or the West, but for Ukrainians sake.

Because the west are not going after Russia out of some moral standpoint. They're using morals obviously but it's nothing more than looking good to the public while trying to stop Russia, a threat to the west from getting peer status.

It's why many western leaders rushed straight to Saudi Arabia to beg the country to pump out more oil when getting themselves off Russian oil. Saudi Arabia has been doing in Yemen every little thing we know Russia has been doing in Ukraine. But Saudi Arabia is never going to achieve a power level that we thought Russia could achieve.

Expecting moral consistency in foreign policy is a fool's game. Everyone is looking out for number 1 and if tomorrow looking out for number 1 means pleasing Putin or whoever is our enemy now, that will happen in some way.

[Khaza-R]

Here's another thing I'm struggling with.

The attitude of the developing world. Especially Latin American nations such as Mexico, Brazil etc.

There's a lot of "not giving a fuck" not even on a lip service level towards what Russia is doing. I understand that for some developing world nations cutting ties with Russia or upsetting Russia carries large economic and security risks, too large to assume. But nations like the ones I mentioned above have no meaningful economic, political or security ties to Russia, the unwillingness to join the sanctions or even to vote for instead of abstaining from what is really just a symbolic vote to me shows a shocking degree of lack of moral consistency.

I have no clue about Mexico (although I suspect it involves illegal activities) but Brazil and Russia's economies are absolutely tied. Brazil produces almost a 1/3 of the world's sugar and is the biggest producer of soybeans as well. Their economy is highly dependent on importing fertilizers. Most of which come from Russia and then Canada.

[zorkuus]

UN has voted to expel Russia (at least temporarily) from UN Human Right's Council.

Surprisingly many countries voting against, but thankfully not enough.

If we were to reform a new UN (and we should), that's a nice list to see what are the bad faith actors who should not be invited.

[Edge-]

It matters tho inside Russia. It helps Putin's domestic narrative that this is some sort of proxy war between the West and Russia, and is being used to seed doubt about whether they are truly in the wrong or not.

You say this as if the UN couldn't have had a 100% unified vote against Russia, but Russian state media would still lie to the Russian people.

This is like worrying, "But what will Republicans do!". It's stupid, they're going to do what they're going to do regardless, so stop caring about "giving them ammo" or "making it easy". Lying is very, very easy.

[Rasulis]

I mean, remind yourself who is in charge of Brazil.

Brazil did not vote against. They abstain. So I would not read too much into it.

Singapore also abstain despite the fact that they are of the first country in Asia that blocked any Russian transactions through their banking system.

Indonesia also abstain and their military has very close ties to the US.

Belize abstain and their economy is tied closely to US economy.

Basically, many countries do not want to be perceived to side with either Russia or US.

[PhaelixWW]

UN has voted to expel Russia (at least temporarily) from UN Human Right's Council.

Per Reuters:

Speaking after the vote, Russia's deputy U.N. Ambassador Gennady Kuzmin described the move as an "illegitimate and politically motivated step" and then announced that Russia had decided to quit the Human Rights Council altogether.

"You do not submit your resignation after you are fired," Ukraine's U.N. Ambassador Sergiy Kyslytsya told reporters.

[dextersmith]

Focused on issues actually directly related to them, instead. I think of it along the lines of what we heard from soldiers in Afghanistan and shit. About how the country wasn't ready for democracy because everyone was simply focused on "surviving" and there was no additional mental capacity to think about things like filing systems, democracy, voting, legal systems etc. because most of the average peoples days were spent simply trying to get by and feed themselves and their families.

It's not a 1:1 in this context, but I think it's a similar mentality of, "We're focused on simply trying to survive, we don't have time for the bullshit that western nations are pulling with each other and are glad that, for once, it doesn't involve us."



Alternatively: They're simply staying out of it altogether. It's not their fight. It's not their problem. They're not going to act "imperially" by getting involved in something that they're not involved with.

Not defending the actions or anything, but that's how it makes sense to me as I've been following some of these developments.

If they feel it's not their concern then they shouldn't have joined the system. They can't say they can't be bothered if they want to sit at the adult's table. This is all a part of graduating from the undeveloped status.

[Poopymonster]

The ol you can’t fire me I quit move. They’ve been watching too many old sitcoms.

Do you think they got the idea from John Travolta or Arye Gross?

Regardless of being a bomb, its a damn funny movie.

[zorkuus]

If they feel it's not their concern then they shouldn't have joined the system.

Oh, it IS their concern. They just happen to be indifferent to warcrimes. Countries like this join just to block stuff against their OWN human rights abuses and so on.

[dextersmith]

Per Reuters:

Their actions say they never knew what human rights were when they joined.

[Poopymonster]

Their actions say they never knew what human rights were when they joined.

They probably were confused. They are for human "Right"s, not those who follow the Left Handed Path.

[Magnagarde]

Here's another thing I'm struggling with.

The attitude of the developing world. Especially Latin American nations such as Mexico, Brazil etc.

There's a lot of "not giving a fuck" not even on a lip service level towards what Russia is doing. I understand that for some developing world nations cutting ties with Russia or upsetting Russia carries large economic and security risks, too large to assume. But nations like the ones I mentioned above have no meaningful economic, political or security ties to Russia, the unwillingness to join the sanctions or even to vote for instead of abstaining from what is really just a symbolic vote to me shows a shocking degree of lack of moral consistency.

They decry western imperialism and the undue influence of the west, but are unwilling to even symbolically stand with a fellow non western nation that finds itself in a situation worse than their own, just because incidentally the west happens to back them.

I'm like...Yes, America bad. But why are you all unable to find a moral fiber here, not for America or the West, but for Ukrainians sake.

That's very simple to explain; they just don't care and they don't have much reason to care either. They have never had the level of human rights and welfare implementation that Europe and NA enjoy; most never asked for outside help either. Some of the most gruesome examples of barbaric behaviour and violations of human rights that regularly crop up on the internet come from SA. How is the Bucha massacre going to terrify someone whose country puts up stiff competition to hayday ISIS when it comes to the number of mutilation and incineration videos posted on the internet on a daily basis? For whoever doesn't want to stay in these countries, their usually fragile/handicapped or corrupt governments facilitate migration up North and make their own problems someone else's problem instead. What little number of countries tried to run an independent show were either sanctioned or destabilized and most of them are very volatile without external interference to begin with. The world has never provided for South America the way it did for some other continents and has always used it for geopolitical powerplays. Nothing except technology has really changed since the times of Simon Bolivar.

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Their actions say they never knew what human rights were when they joined.

And they don't. They would never have created a world order where human rights are a thing if they were in Europe's and NA's position. This applies even if we talk about human rights as a concept, let alone the implementation of said concept.

I don't know why it puzzles a lot of people why so many African and SA countries vote the way they do.

[Flarelaine]

Now consider how much the Russians had to fuck up to be booted from a Human Rights committee that was chaired, not so long ago, by Saudi Fucking Arabia.

[Magnagarde]

Now consider how much the Russians had to fuck up to be booted from a Human Rights committee that was chaired, not so long ago, by Saudi Fucking Arabia.

The irony of certain countries having the right to vote on this matter, while systematically breaking human rights back at home, shouldn't be lost on anyone.

[zorkuus]

The irony of certain countries having the right to vote on this matter, while systematically breaking human rights back at home, shouldn't be lost on anyone.

The UN is beoynd irony... and totally pointless and ineffective. Free democratic nations should reform under a new banner where all the shit countries aren't welcome.

[Jastall]

Now consider how much the Russians had to fuck up to be booted from a Human Rights committee that was chaired, not so long ago, by Saudi Fucking Arabia.

I mean that's a failure of the UN. What the Saudis did in Yemen is hardly better, and for all we know a fair bit worse, than what's happening in Ukraine. But for NA/EU peoples it's foreigners getting killed somewhere, sucks to be them but hardly anyone cares. Ukraine is closer to home, there's the threat of escalation, and let's put the cards on the tables here, they're white Christians so we (royal we) care more about them than about Muslims.

Plus while Russia supplies gas to a good number of EU states, Saudi Arabia sells tons of oil to darn near everyone. They'll have to do far worse than being assholes to their women and invading Yemen to get sanctioned.

[Draco-Onis]

Here's another thing I'm struggling with.

The attitude of the developing world. Especially Latin American nations such as Mexico, Brazil etc.

There's a lot of "not giving a fuck" not even on a lip service level towards what Russia is doing. I understand that for some developing world nations cutting ties with Russia or upsetting Russia carries large economic and security risks, too large to assume. But nations like the ones I mentioned above have no meaningful economic, political or security ties to Russia, the unwillingness to join the sanctions or even to vote for instead of abstaining from what is really just a symbolic vote to me shows a shocking degree of lack of moral consistency.

They decry western imperialism and the undue influence of the west, but are unwilling to even symbolically stand with a fellow non western nation that finds itself in a situation worse than their own, just because incidentally the west happens to back them.

I'm like...Yes, America bad. But why are you all unable to find a moral fiber here, not for America or the West, but for Ukrainians sake.

ROFLMAO morality that's a good one, the United States is not defending Ukraine out of a sense of morality same goes for the West. The simple fact is there is nothing in it for developing countries to take as strong stance against Russia. You also mentioned the history those countries are still digging out of the hole of America's regime change policies, invasions and war crimes which no one cared about at the time because MERICA. The very cherry on top of this shit cake for them is America and the West welcoming Ukrainian refugees with open arms after decades of seeing their refugees beaten, kicked and derided. I mean I can go on but it's pretty clear why they are where they are on this.

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I mean that's a failure of the UN. What the Saudis did in Yemen is hardly better, and for all we know a fair bit worse, than what's happening in Ukraine. But for NA/EU peoples it's foreigners getting killed somewhere, sucks to be them but hardly anyone cares. Ukraine is closer to home, there's the threat of escalation, and let's put the cards on the tables here, they're white Christians so we (royal we) care more about them than about Muslims.

Plus while Russia supplies gas to a good number of EU states, Saudi Arabia sells tons of oil to darn near everyone. They'll have to do far worse than being assholes to their women and invading Yemen to get sanctioned.

It is indeed worse the Saudis are starving 17 million people to death and have committed countless war crimes fully supported by the United States. The only saving grace is now they have agreed to a cease fire in theory, this has been going on for 7 years and no one gives a shit.