Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Mihalik]

Maybe the Russian government decided the online troll brigade whose work is relegated to pushing disinformation in a random WoW forum wasn't worth it so their division has been cut. Or maybe they're just some random schmuck whose expenditures ballooned along with their rapidly deteriorating economy so spending extra money to try unsuccessfully to convince people on a random WoW forum that Russia isn't little more than a poorly-managed rabid dog running around through Ukraine with its balls caught in a vice also wasn't worth it.


We might all be so lucky were those things the case.

It's just the amount of horrible stories from the liberated areas of the mass executions, the rapes, the looting, people being tortured and beaten for days, the gutting of homes, schools, public buildings, the countless people who have been carried off by Russian troops has started to get to me.

I just read about a 20 something woman, a school teacher who was taken away by the Russians as they retreated (take a wild guess how her parents are feeling).

It just boggles the mind. Calling them orcs is insulting to orcs.

Combined with all the stories of Russians literally telling their family members living in Ukraine that they are lying...

Like there was a CNN interview with some college kids, one of whose parents are still in Russia and whose mother disowned him for telling her that the Russians are bombing him. I can't wrap my mind around these people.

[Specialka]

It's becoming clear to me that another thing I was wrong about was that I thought that the Russian high command just lost control of its undisciplined horde which then started war crime rampaging, instead the war crimes, the murders, the executions are ordered from top down. It's their policy. It's the Russian warlords (I refuse to call them generals) just taking out their frustrations on civilians.

What a shit hole of a country.

@Easo where are you? Come tell us again how the Russians aren't barbarians? I'm still pissed at all the bullshit we had to eat from you. Sup? Have you been enlisted and sent to the front?



Remember that?

You do realize he was not pro russian ?

[Xyonai]

It's just the amount of horrible stories from the liberated areas of the mass executions, the rapes, the looting, people being tortured and beaten for days, the gutting of homes, schools, public buildings, the countless people who have been carried off by Russian troops has started to get to me.

I just read about a 20 something woman, a school teacher who was taken away by the Russians as they retreated (take a wild guess how her parents are feeling).

It just boggles the mind. Calling them orcs is insulting to orcs.

Combined with all the stories of Russians literally telling their family members living in Ukraine that they are lying...

Like there was a CNN interview with some college kids, one of whose parents are still in Russia and whose mother disowned him for telling her that the Russians are bombing him. I can't wrap my mind around these people.

It's not the -best- advice, but a break from the Doomscrolling might help a bit. Find something to keep your brain occupied away from the news for a bit to center yourself. I picked up a new game on Steam and have kinda just been mindlessly blowing through that while catching up with Twitch VODs because I realized I was just gluing myself to every news outlet and Subreddit for Invasion Updates and needed to do something else.

And as for the Shills? Fuck 'em. If they never come back the forum will be all the better without willful know-nothings gumming up discourse.

[AntiFascistVoter]

You do realize he was not pro russian ?

Nope, but some people chose the worst circumstances to commit to being a "contrarian asshole". Being a cutesy nihilists is a weird online-meta.

It's all fun and games until people are faced with the grotesque consequences.

[Xyonai]

Nope, but some people chose the worst circumstances to commit to being a "contrarian asshole". Being a cutesy nihilists is a weird online-meta.

It's all fun and games until people are faced with the grotesque consequences.

The only fairness I'll give is that both sides in a lot of those exchanges got incredibly hostile incredibly quickly, contentious and heated topic that this is, but I don't think it was helped by the constant Doomerism that were masquerading as 'grounded takes'. Like you (royal you) can have a 'realistic' view of things without being a dick about it, y'know?

[PhaelixWW]

You do realize he was not pro russian ?

They don't care. They just want their punching bag, so their memory recalls only hyperbole, false though that recollection may be.

After all, calling someone "pro-Russian" as a means of argument is much more easily done than actually addressing their points rationally.

[Kaleredar]

You do realize he was not pro russian ?

They don't care. They just want their punching bag, so their memory recalls only hyperbole, false though that recollection may be.

After all, calling someone "pro-Russian" as a means of argument is much more easily done than actually addressing their points rationally.

I mean, when someone's narrative comes down to "Ukraine really needs to surrender, look at all these Russian sources saying how well Russia is doing and how poorly Ukraine is doing. Also, any source pointing out Russia's logistical flaws, weaknesses, or shortcomings? You can't trust those, nobody could possibly know what's going on on the ground in Ukraine and it's probably all just untrustworthy western propaganda. You should trust Russia, the country that lied about invading, has lied about every ceasefire, continues to lie about their reasons for invading, and is actively committing warcrimes, instead."

It's a little difficult to keep thinking they're just a "concerned observer."

[Veggie50]

This thread has devolved from discussion about the war to a discussion about qualifying posters… guess that’s only natural, since there just isn’t that much news at the moment.

[AntiFascistVoter]

This thread has devolved from discussion about the war to a discussion about qualifying posters… guess that’s only natural, since there just isn’t that much news at the moment.

There's plenty of news. Every hour the depth of Russia's atrocities becomes more clear. Why are you claiming there's not much news at the moment?

There's this other dumb online meta.... "hey guys, I'm above the fray! lookit me, im cool."

As a famous bard once wrote. Thou dost protest too much.

[Veggie50]

There's plenty of news. Every hour the depth of Russia's atrocities becomes more clear. Why are you claiming there's not much news at the moment?

There's this other dumb online meta.... "hey guys, I'm above the fray! lookit me, im cool."

As a famous bard once wrote. Thou dost protest too much.

Guess im disqualified :’(

[Santti]

There's plenty of news. Every hour the depth of Russia's atrocities becomes more clear. Why are you claiming there's not much news at the moment?

There's this other dumb online meta.... "hey guys, I'm above the fray! lookit me, im cool."

As a famous bard once wrote. Thou dost protest too much.

I think you are being a bit unfair. I mean, it's just fine to say that there is not that much news at the moment, because we all know at this point that the war continues and more atrocities are being uncovered. Sure, it's news, but it's still more of the same. No need to bust his balls for that.

[Specialka]

It's a good joke and this occasion is perfect for using it.

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I guess De Gaulle's "You shall not pass!" line was in the La Manche?

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That is precisely what I was getting at.

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The French are usually joked with in Europe when it comes to their WW II surrender. It's no big deal.

I don't know what the American conservative take on France is, but I'd suppose it is highly positive considering the role the French played as America's ally in their war for independence and beyond.

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The most efficient and significant partisan movements were in SE and Eastern Europe. Yugoslavia and Greece are great examples, especially Yugoslavia. France, in comparison, as a country with a much higher number of people, did comparatively much less. France is rightfully not the first country that comes to people's minds when mentioning resistance/partisan warfare. The French prefered saving their cities and infrastructure instead of liberation, which came their way from the outside anyway.

FYI, the joke surrender comes from Indochine war if I remember well.

[Breccia]

Putin puts new general in charge, which evidently is Russian for "We admit this is going poorly".

"What about the previous general?"

Oh, that poor son of a...but that's not important right now.

Army Gen. Alexander Dvornikov apparently ran the show in Syria, so, he actually has a track record that includes both ugly-ass tactics and also victory, specifically bombing Aleppo and killing a bunch of civilians during a cease-fire. So, good, we've got that to look forward to.

The US and EU officials CNN talked to said Dvornikov is possibly doing what we've previously discussed, trying to get something, anything done by May 9 so Putin can hold a "Mission Aꓘꓘomplished Da" banner. So far, we've seen them back off from places they were failing to conquer more blatantly to concentrate their forces into a single target. A rush job, combined with demoralized and exhausted soldiers (the ones that didn't defect, flee or die, at least) means we're going to see one of three things:
a) a bunch of clumsy, sloppy mistakes
b) frustrated and desperate Russians committing atrocities of basically terrorist level to scare Donbas into surrendering
c) both.

The last thing this unprovoked war needed was for Putin to look at his troops killing civilians and saying "Oh that reminds me, I know a guy really good at that, I'll put him in charge". Also, I don't know much about Dvornikov at all, but I'm guessing he's not the type to lead from the front lines, so Ukrainians won't be able to shoot him.

[Mihalik]

They don't care. They just want their punching bag, so their memory recalls only hyperbole, false though that recollection may be.

After all, calling someone "pro-Russian" as a means of argument is much more easily done than actually addressing their points rationally.

What am I recalling wrong? I linked his own words about the Russians.

Earlier I repeatedly had to relink to him how he was constantly make shit up about what the Russians were doing and having.

Even now in his last posts he was literally suggesting that the Ukrainians in fact planted all those bodies in the liberated villages.

He never ever ever retracted any of his false claims and bullshit both sides suggestions despite being proven wrong over and over and over again.

[PhaelixWW]

I mean, when someone's narrative comes down to "Ukraine really needs to surrender

You make my point exactly, because that's not something he ever said or implied, but is instead a construct of your misinterpretation.

He said that he believed Ukraine would be forced to make concessions to get peace, and that peace and rebuilding was better for Ukraine than years of fighting.

He responded as much directly to you.

Rather than argue those points, you and others have since tried to mutate that into "He said they should surrender! He's pro-Russian!"

What a farce, especially when there are actual pro-Russian posters ITT that are much more worthy of this derision.

[Mihalik]

sip

Was there anyone in overall command before?

Because one of the thing that western analysts were saying was that they just couldn't see any overall command. Basically each direction they were attacking from was acting basically independently, competing for resources and reserves etc, and even within the different avenues of advance there was not much communication between the various branches themselves, which is why we rarely ever seen any combined arms operations from the Russians.

[PhaelixWW]

Even now in his last posts he was literally suggesting that the Ukrainians in fact planted all those bodies in the liberated villages.

It's shit like this, exactly. You're suggesting that he said Ukrainians planted them. That's not what he said.

Here's bits of his last few posts...

As for dead bodies and other things - I trust no one and the propaganda pushed by both Russia and Ukraine is tiring.

Bodies need actual 3rd party investigation. I don't care what you will think, they need to be independently verified and ASAP, not months later.

I am not gonna say no to [Russia] being the main suspects

So basically: "we don't know yet for sure what the truth is", "we need to find out what happened", and "it was probably the Russians, though".

And yet you've warped these statements in your memory into "he said Ukrainians planted the bodies!" simply to fit your ridiculous narrative.

Seriously, you should be ashamed of the way you're just strawmanning shit here.

[Iphie]

Putin puts new general in charge, which evidently is Russian for "We admit this is going poorly".

"What about the previous general?"

Oh, that poor son of a...but that's not important right now.

Army Gen. Alexander Dvornikov apparently ran the show in Syria, so, he actually has a track record that includes both ugly-ass tactics and also victory, specifically bombing Aleppo and killing a bunch of civilians during a cease-fire. So, good, we've got that to look forward to.

The US and EU officials CNN talked to said Dvornikov is possibly doing what we've previously discussed, trying to get something, anything done by May 9 so Putin can hold a "Mission Aꓘꓘomplished Da" banner. So far, we've seen them back off from places they were failing to conquer more blatantly to concentrate their forces into a single target. A rush job, combined with demoralized and exhausted soldiers (the ones that didn't defect, flee or die, at least) means we're going to see one of three things:
a) a bunch of clumsy, sloppy mistakes
b) frustrated and desperate Russians committing atrocities of basically terrorist level to scare Donbas into surrendering
c) both.

The last thing this unprovoked war needed was for Putin to look at his troops killing civilians and saying "Oh that reminds me, I know a guy really good at that, I'll put him in charge". Also, I don't know much about Dvornikov at all, but I'm guessing he's not the type to lead from the front lines, so Ukrainians won't be able to shoot him.

He's old school soviet army, he joined in 1978 and never got out. Unfortunately I can't find what other things he has done, so you may be right. As for that cease-fire, it seems it was already collapsing because...well that's what cease-fires generally do when rebels and government forces are in close proximity. (or two armies who hate each others guts.) He does a few awards indicating he has personally seen combat, but those were from when he was younger.

Was there actually a general in overall charge? Last I heard the western intelligence services couldn't identify any, which made the logistical problems only bigger as there would be no one coordinating supplies and indeed, that's what it looked like happened: units competing for resources.

The Finnish news did end with the statement that this might also signal giving more emphasis to talks, but that's something I'll have to see to believe.

Edit: I'm pretty sure he's not a very nice person, since he was in charge of Syria. Perhaps some more coordination might restore some discipline, but I doubt it.

[Kaleredar]

You make my point exactly, because that's not something he ever said or implied, but is instead a construct of your misinterpretation.

He said that he believed Ukraine would be forced to make concessions to get peace, and that peace and rebuilding was better for Ukraine than years of fighting.

And my argument is that that isn't the case, in that it would only give Russia time to rebuild and re-invade more prepared later. Becuase Ukraine would not receive peace or time to rebuild, and asserting that they'd "just have to trust Russia's word" is tantamount to rolling over and showing their belly to aformentioned crazed rabid dog with its balls caught in a vice.

He responded as much directly to you.

Rather than argue those points, you and others have since tried to mutate that into "He said they should surrender! He's pro-Russian!"

What a farce, especially when there are actual pro-Russian posters ITT that are much more worthy of this derision.

It's not just his constant "concern" that Ukraine needs to abandon their line of resistance. It's that coupled with his repeated assertions that the "fog of war" that only he can see through should be sufficient to mean that no one can accurately assess anything about Russia's forces, but that it's clear that Ukraine needs to give up, and that only news from Russia on the matter can be trusted. Anything disagreeing with that he writes off as either misinformed because no one (but Russia, apparently,) knows what's actually gone or that it's "western propaganda," the mere mention of which is a colossal red flag.

It's shit like this, exactly. You're suggesting that he said Ukrainians planted them. That's not what he said.

Here's bits of his last few posts...



So basically: "we don't know yet for sure what the truth is", "we need to find out what happened", and "it was probably the Russians, though".

And yet you've warped these statements in your memory into "he said Ukrainians planted the bodies!" simply to fit your ridiculous narrative.

Seriously, you should be ashamed of the way you're just strawmanning shit here.

His "opinion" on this matter is essentially like saying the halfway point between flat-earthers and everyone else is that the earth is probably a cylinder and that "neither side can be trusted, so we should really keep an open mind."

Establishing an atmosphere of gaslighting, mistrust and disinformation where "nothing can be known" and "nothing is really true" and everyone is equally likely to be a liar, whether intentionally or not, directly feeds into the narrative of countries like Russia or people like Trump wherein THEY, being liars, seek to drag everyone else down to their narrative level of trustworthiness, or lack thereof.

"Ukraine might have planted the bodies" is a batshit insane, stupid conspiracy theory whose mention as being even the most remote possibility only serves to ameliorate Russia of the abject transgressions against humanity and legitimize their crusade of disinformation. It's tantamount to saying that democrats might be running a demonic pizza parlor, or Trump might have won the 2020 election.

After all, I'm not saying that they did, I'm just saying they might have, right?

[Makabreska]

He will attack a non-NATO country before trying his luck with a NATO one.

Well then what currently happens with his forces in Ukraine really should give him a pause.