1. #15881
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    You make my point exactly, because that's not something he ever said or implied, but is instead a construct of your misinterpretation.

    He said that he believed Ukraine would be forced to make concessions to get peace, and that peace and rebuilding was better for Ukraine than years of fighting.
    And my argument is that that isn't the case, in that it would only give Russia time to rebuild and re-invade more prepared later. Becuase Ukraine would not receive peace or time to rebuild, and asserting that they'd "just have to trust Russia's word" is tantamount to rolling over and showing their belly to aformentioned crazed rabid dog with its balls caught in a vice.

    He responded as much directly to you.

    Rather than argue those points, you and others have since tried to mutate that into "He said they should surrender! He's pro-Russian!"

    What a farce, especially when there are actual pro-Russian posters ITT that are much more worthy of this derision.
    It's not just his constant "concern" that Ukraine needs to abandon their line of resistance. It's that coupled with his repeated assertions that the "fog of war" that only he can see through should be sufficient to mean that no one can accurately assess anything about Russia's forces, but that it's clear that Ukraine needs to give up, and that only news from Russia on the matter can be trusted. Anything disagreeing with that he writes off as either misinformed because no one (but Russia, apparently,) knows what's actually gone or that it's "western propaganda," the mere mention of which is a colossal red flag.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    It's shit like this, exactly. You're suggesting that he said Ukrainians planted them. That's not what he said.

    Here's bits of his last few posts...



    So basically: "we don't know yet for sure what the truth is", "we need to find out what happened", and "it was probably the Russians, though".

    And yet you've warped these statements in your memory into "he said Ukrainians planted the bodies!" simply to fit your ridiculous narrative.

    Seriously, you should be ashamed of the way you're just strawmanning shit here.
    His "opinion" on this matter is essentially like saying the halfway point between flat-earthers and everyone else is that the earth is probably a cylinder and that "neither side can be trusted, so we should really keep an open mind."

    Establishing an atmosphere of gaslighting, mistrust and disinformation where "nothing can be known" and "nothing is really true" and everyone is equally likely to be a liar, whether intentionally or not, directly feeds into the narrative of countries like Russia or people like Trump wherein THEY, being liars, seek to drag everyone else down to their narrative level of trustworthiness, or lack thereof.

    "Ukraine might have planted the bodies" is a batshit insane, stupid conspiracy theory whose mention as being even the most remote possibility only serves to ameliorate Russia of the abject transgressions against humanity and legitimize their crusade of disinformation. It's tantamount to saying that democrats might be running a demonic pizza parlor, or Trump might have won the 2020 election.

    After all, I'm not saying that they did, I'm just saying they might have, right?
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2022-04-10 at 08:07 AM.
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  2. #15882
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    He will attack a non-NATO country before trying his luck with a NATO one.
    Well then what currently happens with his forces in Ukraine really should give him a pause.
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  3. #15883
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    You make my point exactly, because that's not something he ever said or implied, but is instead a construct of your misinterpretation.

    He said that he believed Ukraine would be forced to make concessions to get peace, and that peace and rebuilding was better for Ukraine than years of fighting.

    He responded as much directly to you.

    Rather than argue those points, you and others have since tried to mutate that into "He said they should surrender! He's pro-Russian!"

    What a farce, especially when there are actual pro-Russian posters ITT that are much more worthy of this derision.
    Easo absolutely DID make that point. He was relatively subtle about it, in the sense that he simply downplayed or hand-waved any reported Ukrainian successes, while talking up the Russian position. He was coming at it from a point of view of Russian superiority making it inevitable that Ukraine would lose. Hell, I'm pretty sure he even talked about what Ukraine would need to give up to get peace, but I'd have to check back to make sure I've not misremembered that.

    So yes, if there was "misinterpretation" taking place, it was happening to a whole bunch of people all thinking exactly the same thing about Easo's position. If that's happening, either you're failing badly at communicating what you mean, or you are trying to gaslight readers into believing that's not what you meant. Nothing farcical about calling that out, especially when his posting technique allows him to avoid the bans that get the obvious ones like Shalcker.
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  4. #15884
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Was there anyone in overall command before?

    Because one of the thing that western analysts were saying was that they just couldn't see any overall command. Basically each direction they were attacking from was acting basically independently, competing for resources and reserves etc, and even within the different avenues of advance there was not much communication between the various branches themselves, which is why we rarely ever seen any combined arms operations from the Russians.
    That's what I thought -and read- too, but that would mean that previously this entire operation would have been conducted by Putin personally, him being the supreme commander of the army by virtue of him being the president? I wonder why he's giving control away.

  5. #15885
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    That's what I thought -and read- too, but that would mean that previously this entire operation would have been conducted by Putin personally, him being the supreme commander of the army by virtue of him being the president? I wonder why he's giving control away.
    I'm going to guess it's because he thought "invade Ukraine, they'll come begging at our door within a week" was satisfactory direction and when that failed and he didn't have any plans beyond that.

    At this point maybe he's realized that perhaps that wasn't satisfactory direction and might actually need someone who knows how to command soldiers in charge of the military.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  6. #15886
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I'm going to guess it's because he thought "invade Ukraine, they'll come begging at our door within a week" was satisfactory direction and when that failed and he didn't have any plans beyond that.

    At this point maybe he's realized that perhaps that wasn't satisfactory direction and might actually need someone who knows how to command soldiers in charge of the military.
    Plausible, other thoughts I had it allows him to, however slightly, create distance between himself and the war. He can scapegoat the new commander and, this is slightly out there but not impossible, he establishes a line of succession (or chain of command if you will) should something happen to himself. (disclaimer: not advocating for violence towards him, I'm talking natural causes.)
    Last edited by Iphie; 2022-04-10 at 09:47 AM.

  7. #15887
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FP96XeeX...jpg&name=large

    So much for the "it's Putin not the Russians" theory.
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  8. #15888
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    Easo absolutely DID make that point. He was relatively subtle about it, in the sense that he simply downplayed or hand-waved any reported Ukrainian successes, while talking up the Russian position. He was coming at it from a point of view of Russian superiority making it inevitable that Ukraine would lose. Hell, I'm pretty sure he even talked about what Ukraine would need to give up to get peace, but I'd have to check back to make sure I've not misremembered that.

    So yes, if there was "misinterpretation" taking place, it was happening to a whole bunch of people all thinking exactly the same thing about Easo's position. If that's happening, either you're failing badly at communicating what you mean, or you are trying to gaslight readers into believing that's not what you meant. Nothing farcical about calling that out, especially when his posting technique allows him to avoid the bans that get the obvious ones like Shalcker.
    Anyone who doesn't tow the party line and says that Ukraine may have to give up something or compromise has been labeled by many in this thread as a Putanista. Me and him have disagreed on everything since he is a long time pro Israel poster, his point was never that Ukraine should give up. He can be critique for not believing Ukraine's reports as much as Russia but I never got the point you got out of his posts.

    It's not unreasonable to think Ukraine's lost would be inevitable, it was the stance of US intelligence for weeks. They have only changed it to maybe they can hold out and this can be like Afghanistan which isn't a lovely prospect.

  9. #15889
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draco-Onis View Post
    Anyone who doesn't tow the party line and says that Ukraine may have to give up something or compromise has been labeled by many in this thread as a Putanista. Me and him have disagreed on everything since he is a long time pro Israel poster, his point was never that Ukraine should give up. He can be critique for not believing Ukraine's reports as much as Russia but I never got the point you got out of his posts.

    It's not unreasonable to think Ukraine's lost would be inevitable, it was the stance of US intelligence for weeks. They have only changed it to maybe they can hold out and this can be like Afghanistan which isn't a lovely prospect.
    The feeling I mostly got from his posts were that Ukraine should just roll over and allow Russia to do whatever they wanted as fait accompli. Which is why he got the reaction he has.

    Maybe that wasn't what he wanted to communicate, but that's how it read with how gas-lighty he was about everything.
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  10. #15890
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    The feeling I mostly got from his posts were that Ukraine should just roll over and allow Russia to do whatever they wanted as fait accompli. Which is why he got the reaction he has.

    Maybe that wasn't what he wanted to communicate, but that's how it read with how gas-lighty he was about everything.
    Plus his super annoying, "better than you" (because he follows some superior info source or w/e) approach to anyone who questioned him, calling every Ukraine-positive news or Russian atrocities as "memes".
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-04-10 at 11:15 AM.
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  11. #15891
    Given Russia's already existing morale, manpower and logistics problems, I'm not sure appointing an overall commander at this stage will have much of an effect. And throwing their mauled army at targets in an attempt to win a 'victory' for May 7th could backfire.

    That the new commander was successful in Syria also doesn't mean a lot. Those were two vastly different wars. In Syria the Russians were mostly using airpower to indiscriminately bomb cities while fighting lightly armed militias. They are still doing the indiscriminate bombing, but they are also using large numbers of ground forces, which they didn't have in Syria and fighting a modern, western trained and experienced army with equipment with heavy weaponry.

  12. #15892
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    You know who would've been fun to see in this thread?

    That dude from the Netherlands that was so anti-West.

    Kangodo or smth...

  13. #15893
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    manpower and logistics problems,,
    you cant have logistic problems if all your men are killed

  14. #15894
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynep View Post
    Yes. Even as a person rooting for full Ukrainian victory and admission of my city into EU, I'll be the first to say no cheating. Ukraine needs to actually fulfill all criteria. Luckily Europeans can give advice on how to, and (I hope) this time Ukrainians are willing to do the work required for that.
    As I said, if you guys put in half the work that you put in defending your country, I have no doubt that Ukraine will be a shining example that Russia could learn from. You know, after the utter collapse of their economy and the hard reset of their country... As much as we absolutely hate Russia right now, I hope you guys have a big enough heart to help Russians when that day comes. They will need your help, cos fuckit, nobody else on this planet is going to touch that shithole for generations.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So, things on the social media front are calming down as the Ukrainian military restricts information (as a proper military should). But today things are picking up in the East and I'm reading this: https://twitter.com/AlexandruC4/stat...rJ9cKFwCA&s=19

    Like, literally Russians went "Uh, so... let's do another convoy, shall we?" and apparently Ukrainians went like "Are they for real? Get St. Javelin..." and destroyed the convoy before I had time to read all the jokes the internet made...

    Is that true? Anyone got confirmation of this?
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  15. #15895
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Was there anyone in overall command before?
    Based on that article, no.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    you cant have logistic problems if all your men are killed
    I'd argue 100% the reverse, actually.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    So much for the "it's Putin not the Russians" theory.
    One, while Levada-Center at least seems less state-run than most, I don't trust any Russian poll that dares to go public.

    Two, that poll ends Feb and, gosh, kind of a lot's changed.

  16. #15896
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    As I said, if you guys put in half the work that you put in defending your country, I have no doubt that Ukraine will be a shining example that Russia could learn from. You know, after the utter collapse of their economy and the hard reset of their country... As much as we absolutely hate Russia right now, I hope you guys have a big enough heart to help Russians when that day comes. They will need your help, cos fuckit, nobody else on this planet is going to touch that shithole for generations.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So, things on the social media front are calming down as the Ukrainian military restricts information (as a proper military should). But today things are picking up in the East and I'm reading this: https://twitter.com/AlexandruC4/stat...rJ9cKFwCA&s=19

    Like, literally Russians went "Uh, so... let's do another convoy, shall we?" and apparently Ukrainians went like "Are they for real? Get St. Javelin..." and destroyed the convoy before I had time to read all the jokes the internet made...

    Is that true? Anyone got confirmation of this?
    Seems unlikely to be able to destroy an entire convoy unless they have significant ground forces in the area.

    The entire point of sending supply's and men in large convoys is you limit how many of your transports the enemy has time to shoot as they move, it's essentially the same concept large herd animals use to minimize predictors effectiveness.

    Hopefully tho the Ukrainians managed to inflict significant enought losses on it.

  17. #15897
    The Lightbringer Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    So, things on the social media front are calming down as the Ukrainian military restricts information (as a proper military should). But today things are picking up in the East and I'm reading this: https://twitter.com/AlexandruC4/stat...rJ9cKFwCA&s=19

    Like, literally Russians went "Uh, so... let's do another convoy, shall we?" and apparently Ukrainians went like "Are they for real? Get St. Javelin..." and destroyed the convoy before I had time to read all the jokes the internet made...

    Is that true? Anyone got confirmation of this?
    It appears to be another one from the one near Kharkiv (near, 100 km away, but still). No confirmation seen yet though, even though that map is usually pretty accurate.
    Last edited by Iphie; 2022-04-10 at 02:02 PM.

  18. #15898
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post

    One, while Levada-Center at least seems less state-run than most, I don't trust any Russian poll that dares to go public.

    Two, that poll ends Feb and, gosh, kind of a lot's changed.
    Well, Levada was painted by Kremlin as a "western puppet" or w/e.

    But here is the thing with Russian polls. An unknown number calls you and asks about your opinion. How will you answer, knowing that opposing Putler and the war means fines or jail time?
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  19. #15899
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    But here is the thing with Russian polls. An unknown number calls you and asks about your opinions. How will you answer, knowing that opposing Putler and the war means fines or jail time?
    The upswing at the start of the war was exactly what Putin was hoping for. It's why he did it in the first place. Regardless of what the poll says, we know the same effect didn't work here. One, he hasn't won yet. Two, there's significant backlash that's affecting the Russian way of life.

    A leader who has to shut down banks and stock markets so you can't get your own money out doesn't get a fair 90% poll result.

  20. #15900
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canpinter View Post
    Seems unlikely to be able to destroy an entire convoy unless they have significant ground forces in the area.

    The entire point of sending supply's and men in large convoys is you limit how many of your transports the enemy has time to shoot as they move, it's essentially the same concept large herd animals use to minimize predictors effectiveness.

    Hopefully tho the Ukrainians managed to inflict significant enought losses on it.
    If the previous large gatherings of vehicles has been any indication. You take out the front few to stop forward movement, a few in the back to prevent backing up/turn around, you've made a nice shooting gallery. Unlikely to destroy it all? Of course. Brought it to a standstill and have a window of opportunity to shoot vehicles in a nice line? Sounds like a good time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

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