Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Gorsameth]

I said nothing I said nothing about Ukraine sovereignty. We're talking about Ukraine's neutrality when it comes to the US (NATO) and Russia. Ukraine gave up the nukes it inherited from the USSR and the grounds that the Ukraine is allowed to and remain neutral. Ukraine's geographic location is strategically important to the foreign policy of the US and Russia in regards to the other so ease any problems the two over Ukraine, Ukraine was supposed to be allowed to be neutral. The US and Russia have sense tested the terms of that neutrality over the years. Some Ukrainian leaders even tested the waters at times. Long story short, US and Russia tugged at Ukraine for years and a conflict was inevitable unless both countries reset on the situation. Neither did, Ukraine pays the ultimate price.

Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.
Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine.
Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine to influence their politics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budape...rances#Content

Claiming the Bucharest Memorandum was about turning Ukraine into a neutral buffer state is just bullshit. The US and UK have not violated Ukraine's independence or sovereignty, have not threatened Ukraine with the use of force nor economically pressured Ukraine to influence its politics.

The Ukraine is not bound to never join a side, the treaty was for Ukraine to do what it wanted itself, not have outside powers dictate internal policy. If Ukraine wants to join NATO that is not a violation of the treaty so long as its Ukraine's own decision to do so.

And the US, not the UK, has threatened Ukraine into joining NATO. The only one who has done that is Russia by showing that there is no other protection from Russian aggression.

[Magnagarde]

Imagine how awful your methods had to have been to be removed for being too brutal while governing by spain, the most fervent sponsor of the catholic inquisition.

And you think politics and greed didn't play a role in this case? I think it's naive to believe that Castile wanted him gone only because he was brutal.

[zorkuus]

And you think politics and greed didn't play a role in this case? I think it's naive to believe that Castile wanted him gone only because he was brutal.

You seem to have a hardon for him.

[Magnagarde]

So, your conversation is entirely pointless then. Understood.

It's not pointless. You and multiple others posted about it like you invented the wheel, pretending like there's a point to calling a guy that lived 600 years ago a killer.

[zorkuus]

It's not pointless. You and multiple others posted about it like you invented the wheel, pretending like there's a point to calling a guy that lived 600 years ago a killer.

There seems to be a point then. Because he was.

[Magnagarde]

There seems to be a point then. Because he was.

I would never have guessed.

[Specialka]

There seems to be a point then. Because he was.

Like most of his contemporaries.

[Ripster42]

And you think politics and greed didn't play a role in this case? I think it's naive to believe that Castile wanted him gone only because he was brutal.

While you're right that greed played a part, it was literally because his tactics were leading to wide scale revolts, making the colony unprofitable. If he hadn't been such a rapine, murderous asshole, things wouldn't have gotten so bad. The reason his tactics weren't the norm is because they didn't work. They're too brutal to work without the type of tech we have now.

- - - Updated - - -

Like most of his contemporaries.

This is false.

[Canpinter]

Back on topic, let's be hopeful for a minute and assume Ukraine is fully able to push Russia out of it's territory. What happens then?

[Specialka]

Back on topic, let's be hopeful for a minute and assume Ukraine is fully able to push Russia out of it's territory. What happens then?

They won't be able to. Let's be realistic.

[zorkuus]

Like most of his contemporaries.

It is a logical fallacy to deny criticism simply because of "different times".

[Specialka]

Being realistic would be to acknowledge the past 2 months...they very much might be able to at this point

That means taking back Crimea and Dombass, which won't happen.

[Ripster42]

Si wtf are you even arguing here? You admit he was a murderer, but at the same time nobody can say so because we all want to report him to the ICC apparently?

Do I have your position down?

Moral relativism while simultaneously ignoring the fact that even by the morals of his time he was beyond the pale.

[Poopymonster]

That "history" museum is based on New Chronology by Fomenko, a massive conspiracy theory.

The gist of the theory is:
1) All our history before 1600 AD is fabricated on authority of the Vatican, The Holy Roman Empire and the Romanovs.
2) Everything that happened in Ancient times actually happened in Medieval times
3) Almost all achievements in world history before 1600 AD are by a global empire called the Russian horde

I honestly don't think the average Russian thinks this all holds much truth... yet.

I'm surprised it doesn't involve the Rothchilds. Or even more fearsome, the Rothparents.

[Mazza]

Back on topic, let's be hopeful for a minute and assume Ukraine is fully able to push Russia out of it's territory. What happens then?

That is quite the hypothetical. To be clear, by Ukraine's territory you mean the internationally recognised ones? Because that would mean taking Crimea and that seems quite a big ask at the moment.

I would say some sort of regime change in Russia would be near inevitable at that point. And with that the war could end.

[Canpinter]

That is quite the hypothetical. To be clear, by Ukraine's territory you mean the internationally recognised ones? Because that would mean taking Crimea and that seems quite a big ask at the moment.

I would say some sort of regime change in Russia would be near inevitable at that point. And with that the war could end.

Sorry should have spessified I meant the 2021 boarder so not Crimea

[Breccia]

Last time they hit a fuel depot and it took a few days to comfirm.

I'm asking because we know an ammo dump blew up a couple weeks ago. That's why I asked. @Iphie seems to link a source saying this is new.

[Flarelaine]

Imagine that, the Black Sea would suddenly become a NATO pond. Russia would essentially be cut off from the Meds (just like they would be cut off from leaving the Baltic Sea) for good, leaving them only Murmansk as a strategical port to the Atlantic. A port they pretty much can't use during winter time for surface vessels.

The whole point of Murmansk is that its port is not frozen in winter, thanks to the Gulf Stream. That's why it was built for Western supply when Russia's other ports were blockaded by the Central Powers.

[PACOX]

Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.
Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine.
Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine to influence their politics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budape...rances#Content

Claiming the Bucharest Memorandum was about turning Ukraine into a neutral buffer state is just bullshit. The US and UK have not violated Ukraine's independence or sovereignty, have not threatened Ukraine with the use of force nor economically pressured Ukraine to influence its politics.

The Ukraine is not bound to never join a side, the treaty was for Ukraine to do what it wanted itself, not have outside powers dictate internal policy. If Ukraine wants to join NATO that is not a violation of the treaty so long as its Ukraine's own decision to do so.

And the US, not the UK, has threatened Ukraine into joining NATO. The only one who has done that is Russia by showing that there is no other protection from Russian aggression.

All you're telling me is that you are fully capable of retracing the political games that both sides played but still want to maintain a patriotic bias. The war and every life lost is on Putin but to act like the US and Russia weren't (and still are) using Ukraine as a proxy is wild. Even Zelenskyy says it just enough not to cut off to salvage his aid.

If Ukraine wants to join NATO that is not a violation of the treaty so long as its Ukraine's own decision to do so.

The agreement is precisely why NATO does not want Ukraine to be in NATO. And it's wholly irresponsible and unfair for certain NATO members to say "if Ukraine wants to join NATO then Ukraine can join NATO" knowing full well NATO would not have accepted Ukraine if Ukraine asked no was it going to invite Ukraine.

[Magnagarde]

Si wtf are you even arguing here? You admit he was a murderer, but at the same time nobody can say so because we all want to report him to the ICC apparently?

Do I have your position down?

I am saying that it is absolutely foolish to recite what Columbus was with the modern connotation that the words carry with themselves. Some call it "moral relativization", but it is relativized by the very fact that he lived 600 years ago and that it's absolutely pointless to point it out in comparison to what is transpiring in the current day and age. The way I see it, a European country attacking another in the 21st century is much worse than whatever Columbus did in the 15th century.