1. #16041
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    The course is sadly already set toward maximalist goals - humiliating both Ukraine and their Western backers which openly call for military solution as the only way forward, like Borell recently saying in Kiev that the conflict "will be won on the battlefield", not through diplomatic efforts.

    Loud calls for civilians to evacuate Donbass ASAP from both sides suggest that it will likely be set as example of how "gloves off" looks like.
    You do realize that the one humiliated here is Russia ? I mean, they planned to steamroll Ukraine and failed hard to do so. The S400 system (which was sold as the best in the world) is a failure. You have huge losses in personal and vehicles, etc...
    Do not forget that.

  2. #16042
    Over 9000! Santti's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    9,121
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    The cancer is back.
    And that's when you know your buttocks have been splashed with the cold toilet water of omen.

    Had to turn Adblock off to check what you meant. And yeah, this thread is going to be shit for the next dozens of pages now...
    Quote Originally Posted by SpaghettiMonk View Post
    And again, let’s presume equity in schools is achievable. Then why should a parent read to a child?

  3. #16043
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    You do realize that the one humiliated here is Russia ? I mean, they planned to steamroll Ukraine and failed hard to do so.
    I see no documents confirming this supposed "steamroll", and plenty of alternative versions. You are free to cling to versions that "Russia is already defeated"; but didn't you just argue that "price might be too high for Ukraine in the end"?

    There were many ways this could play out; every day narrows window of possibilities, and diplomatic solution sadly looks to be already out of the question.

    The S400 system (which was sold as the best in the world) is a failure.
    S400 is primarily anti-aircraft/anti-missile system, and i have seen no mentions of it being deployed in Ukraine as it would have very limited use there given Ukraine has no missiles for which BUKs would not be enough.

    You have huge losses in personal and vehicles, etc... Do not forget that.
    Your humiliation will be even worse when "defeated" Russia will still roll over Ukraine.

    If it will happen, of course. Let's see how it will play out.

  4. #16044
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    I see no documents confirming this supposed "steamroll", and plenty of alternative versions. You are free to cling to versions that "Russia is already defeated"; but didn't you just argue that "price might be too high for Ukraine in the end"?

    There were many ways this could play out; every day narrows window of possibilities, and diplomatic solution sadly looks to be already out of the question.

    S400 is primarily anti-aircraft/anti-missile system, and i have seen no mentions of it being deployed in Ukraine as it would have very limited use there given Ukraine has no missiles for which BUKs would not be enough.

    Your humiliation will be even worse when "defeated" Russia will still roll over Ukraine.

    If it will happen, of course. Let's see how it will play out.
    Not defeated, "Humiliated" as Ukraine, a nation with a 90's army hold off a so called superpower army. Which should have not happen. Oh I am sure Russia will "win" against Ukraine but at what cost ? Far more that what was planned beforehand.

  5. #16045
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    diplomatic solution sadly looks to be already out of the question.
    .
    Given the mass rapes and executions of civilians by Russian troops it does look unlikely. How can you negotiate a peace with that?

  6. #16046
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post

    On another note, Russian MoD already reported destruction of Slovakian S300 recently gifted to Ukraine.
    Who cares what they say, they're lying all the time.

  7. #16047
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    NY, USA
    Posts
    40,111
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    How can you negotiate a peace with that?
    It does seem like Russia has no intention at all of stopping their blatant war crimes. Man, can you imagine defending blatant war crimes? Or eating rotting turnips?

  8. #16048
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    I see no documents confirming this supposed "steamroll", and plenty of alternative versions. You are free to cling to versions that "Russia is already defeated"; but didn't you just argue that "price might be too high for Ukraine in the end"?

    There were many ways this could play out; every day narrows window of possibilities, and diplomatic solution sadly looks to be already out of the question.

    S400 is primarily anti-aircraft/anti-missile system, and i have seen no mentions of it being deployed in Ukraine as it would have very limited use there given Ukraine has no missiles for which BUKs would not be enough.

    Your humiliation will be even worse when "defeated" Russia will still roll over Ukraine.

    If it will happen, of course. Let's see how it will play out.
    Dude just stop, your not accomplishing anything. No one is convinced by anything you say, you don't contribute, you don't improve the conversation. All you accomplish with your life this way is making everyone you interact with a bit more miserable. Just stop and get help.

  9. #16049
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynep View Post
    You, among several others here, are misreading the situation. There is a partial parallel between Empire of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor and Russian Federation attacking Ukraine: both have turned public opinion in USA from apathy to approval of what their leadership already wanted to do: destroy the attacker country. Ukraine is just one theater of the larger conflict, this won't be over until Russia crumbles and a USA-friendly regime is in power there. Therefore, Zelensky doesn't need to do what Pétain chose to do. Collaborators lost, freedom fighters won.

    So to quote you twice:

    Wanna bet that Russia will follow the fate of USSR and dissolve from inside, within your lifetime?
    I'd bet when it does it would be during a war.

  10. #16050
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Not defeated, "Humiliated" as Ukraine, a nation with a 90's army hold off a so called superpower army.
    Hold off for how long? What is your estimate?

    Everyone said that what was deployed near Kiev wasn't enough to take it through street battles.
    Maybe it was a distraction to freeze Ukrainian reinforcements from coming to Mariupol/Donbass as Ritter proposes.
    Maybe it aimed for internal coup that failed to materialize - or Zelensky coming to his senses in face of future Ukrainian destruction.
    Maybe it was to let Medvedchuk escape (as noone knows where he is now) to later use him as leader of partitioned Ukraine.
    Or maybe it was indeed forward group that was supposed to be later reinforced to take Kiev, and withdrawing thus invalidated this part of the plan.

    We sadly cannot be sure for quite a while.

    Oh I am sure Russia will "win" against Ukraine but at what cost ? Far more that what was planned beforehand.
    In existential questions sadly no cost is seen as too great.

    Do you think "Western win", if it ever comes, will not come at the cost far higher then what was planned beforehand?

    Just for "gas replacement" alone i've seen estimates going up to ten trillions.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2022-04-11 at 04:51 PM.

  11. #16051
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Like most of his contemporaries.
    Maarten van Rossum comes to mind... but he was like 40-50 years later...

  12. #16052
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Ritter proposes.
    who is ritter? scott ritter?

  13. #16053
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Hold off for how long? What is your estimate?

    Everyone said that what was deployed near Kiev wasn't enough to take it through street battles.
    Maybe it was a distraction to freeze Ukrainian reinforcements from coming to Mariupol/Donbass as Ritter proposes.
    Maybe it aimed for internal coup that failed to materialize - or Zelensky coming to his senses in face of future Ukrainian destruction.
    Maybe it was to let Medvedchuk escape (as noone knows where he is now) to later use him as leader of partitioned Ukraine.
    Or maybe it was indeed forward group that was supposed to be later reinforced to take Kiev, and withdrawing thus invalidated this part of the plan.

    We sadly cannot be sure for quite a while.

    In existential questions sadly no cost is seen as too great.

    Do you think "Western win", if it ever comes, will not come at the cost far higher then what was planned beforehand?

    Just for "gas replacement" alone i've seen estimates going up to ten trillions.
    You do not lose that many people/equipment as a distraction. Soldiers do not like to be use as cannon fodder.

    Say that to your soldiers you send in without support/ warm clothes /food/etc... I am sure they would like to have a talk with you.

  14. #16054
    Quote Originally Posted by Canpinter View Post
    Dude just stop, your not accomplishing anything. No one is convinced by anything you say, you don't contribute, you don't improve the conversation. All you accomplish with your life this way is making everyone you interact with a bit more miserable. Just stop and get help.
    You need to understand how miserable situation is to understand full gravity of it; "We're already winning" is very counterproductive Western cope.

  15. #16055
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Hold off for how long? What is your estimate?

    Everyone said that what was deployed near Kiev wasn't enough to take it through street battles.
    Maybe it was a distraction to freeze Ukrainian reinforcements from coming to Mariupol/Donbass as Ritter proposes.
    Maybe it aimed for internal coup that failed to materialize - or Zelensky coming to his senses in face of future Ukrainian destruction.
    Maybe it was to let Medvedchuk escape (as noone knows where he is now) to later use him as leader of partitioned Ukraine.
    Or maybe it was indeed forward group that was supposed to be later reinforced to take Kiev, and withdrawing thus invalidated this part of the plan.

    We sadly cannot be sure for quite a while.

    In existential questions sadly no cost is seen as too great.

    Do you think "Western win", if it ever comes, will not come at the cost far higher then what was planned beforehand?

    Just for "gas replacement" alone i've seen estimates going up to ten trillions.
    Working hard for those turnips!

  16. #16056
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Russia right now is the literal definition of a rogue nation. But whatever.

    Ideally they should be demilitarized and totally isolated. but we don't live in an ideal world.
    Obviously Russia is not going to stay a rogue nation forever. Demilitarization basically means the West has to provide protection for Russia. It means we have to occupy that country. Have a look at the map. Yes, ALL OF THAT needs to be occupied. And historically speaking Europe couldn't even make it as far as Moscow and control the area.

    This ain't gonna happen. End of story. People, you need to think about what you're talking of before you post.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  17. #16057
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    You need to understand how miserable situation is to understand full gravity of it; "We're already winning" is very counterproductive Western cope.
    Btw, French Gendarmes have arrived to help investigate the Russian war crimes.

  18. #16058
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    You do not lose that many people/equipment as a distraction. Soldiers do not like to be use as cannon fodder.
    Different countries operate differently for a lot of reasons.

    Say that to your soldiers you send in without support/ warm clothes /food/etc... I am sure they would like to have a talk with you.
    If they would actually be without support, warm clothes, and food, they would be routed across entire line. You cannot operate for a month without food and clothes.

    And their line largely held and even advanced until they retreated.

  19. #16059
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Your humiliation will be even worse when "defeated" Russia will still roll over Ukraine. If it will happen, of course. Let's see how it will play out.
    Yeah...three days...any day now? Going on three months...
    Maybe within 3 years from now?

  20. #16060
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    You need to understand how miserable situation is to understand full gravity of it; "We're already winning" is very counterproductive Western cope.
    You could help improve the situation tho, sabotage the government you work for in any way you can.

    Imagine how you will feel to do some good for once in your life.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •