1. #16461
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Humiliation? This is Russia LOSING:

    https://twitter.com/CanadianUkrain1/...RQ-yFQkCw&s=09

    The fuck are you talking about levelling more cities? Ukraine is fighting for their freedom, your defeatist attitude is deeply offensive. You want them to enslave themselves because a bully has weapons? Thank god you're not in charge of anything. I'd have owned you on the schoolyard. And I was one of the nice guys.
    This is not a recreation court in some primary school. People dies here (though we could say that for the primary school in a different way). Losing is humiliation for Russia since they tried to sell us the illusion that Russia STRONK. So they won't stop until they got what they want, even if they have to level most Ukrainian towns (and unfortunately, they have the means to do so). We could hope they run out of money before that but how about the damage they will do before that ?

    Both will have to compromise. Ukraine will probably have to forfeit Crimea and maybe Dombass as a bonus. Russia will also have a corridor to supply water and such to Crimea. And Russia won't go after the "denazification" (though we all know it was BS from the start).

  2. #16462
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    They have a point; while it may not be mainstream, I have seen a video or two where black students discuss why they should just accept the teachings of Newton and why can't there be black mathematics.
    That point is so ridiculous, you don't follow the teachings of Newton. You use the knowledge he discovered to further your own (or other's) goals in mathematics or whatever else you need it for.

    If they knew what they were talking about they'd understand there are no black and white people, just people who's skin reflects different kinds of light. The colors we see are a spectrum made up by our brains to differentiate between different wavelengths of light they are not inherent properties of reality.

    What it boils down too is that these people are idiots who don't understand the topic they want to understand, a topic that many others do understand and then instead of acknowledging their own shortcomings they blame it on the topic they don't understand.

    Instead they could've not accepted "Newtons teachings" in the way that any other scientist would; by verifying it through an experiment. And once you do that you no longer have to accept anyone's teachings you can accept your own observations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    This is not a recreation court in some primary school. People dies here (though we could say that for the primary school in a different way). Losing is humiliation for Russia since they tried to sell us the illusion that Russia STRONK. So they won't stop until they got what they want, even if they have to level most Ukrainian towns (and unfortunately, they have the means to do so). We could hope they run out of money before that but how about the damage they will do before that ?

    Both will have to compromise. Ukraine will probably have to forfeit Crimea and maybe Dombass as a bonus. Russia will also have a corridor to supply water and such to Crimea. And Russia won't go after the "denazification" (though we all know it was BS from the start).
    Because if Ukraine compromises now and gives away a lot of territory, there is no guarantee Russia won't focus on rearming itself in the next few years and try again from where they left of with much heavier weapons and better tactics. There is zero reason at all in the current climate for Ukraine to compromise anything because Russia has proven to be a liar and a cheat. They don't uphold their promises and therefore no agreement can be made at this point.

    Until one of the lesser agreements they've made so far about human corridors are being upheld, Russia is not to be trusted.
    Last edited by P for Pancetta; 2022-04-11 at 12:56 PM.

  3. #16463
    Quote Originally Posted by P for Pancetta View Post
    That point is so ridiculous, you don't follow the teachings of Newton. You use the knowledge he discovered to further your own (or other's) goals in mathematics or whatever else you need it for.

    If they knew what they were talking about they'd understand there are no black and white people, just people who's skin reflects different kinds of light. The colors we see are a spectrum made up by our brains to differentiate between different wavelengths of light they are not inherent properties of reality.

    What it boils down too is that these people are idiots who don't understand the topic they want to understand, a topic that many others do understand and then instead of acknowledging their own shortcomings they blame it on the topic they don't understand.

    Instead they could've not accepted "Newtons teachings" in the way that any other scientist would; by verifying it through an experiment. And once you do that you no longer have to accept anyone's teachings you can accept your own observations.

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    Because if Ukraine compromises now and gives away a lot of territory, there is no guarantee Russia won't focus on rearming itself in the next few years and try again from where they left of with much heavier weapons and better tactics. There is zero reason at all in the current climate for Ukraine to compromise anything because Russia has proven to be a liar and a cheat. They don't uphold their promises and therefore no agreement can be made at this point,
    We all know that it is what will happen. Russia will come back for the rest. That is why Ukraine will have to prepare for it.

  4. #16464
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    A killer and liar in the 15th century? Unbelievable! /s

    You're talking about Columbus like he was born in 2001, as if the majority of his contemporaries weren't the same and as if that wasn't the norm of the age, an age when universal human rights didn't exist as a moral and legal concept.
    His exploits were definitely out of line with the norms of the age, and were why he got removed from being governor of hispaniola. Don't know why people keep pushing the ahistorical vision you're pushing here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  5. #16465
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    A killer and liar in the 15th century? Unbelievable! /s

    You're talking about Columbus like he was born in 2001, as if the majority of his contemporaries weren't the same and as if that wasn't the norm of the age, an age when universal human rights didn't exist as a moral and legal concept.
    That's not a good defence to idolize him. You would understand this if you were a bit smarter.
    His exploits were definitely out of line with the norms of the age, and were why he got removed from being governor of hispaniola. Don't know why people keep pushing the ahistorical vision you're pushing here.
    People often "forget" this side of the story. He was a monster even in his days.
    Last edited by zorkuus; 2022-04-11 at 01:12 PM.

  6. #16466
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    His exploits were definitely out of line with the norms of the age, and were why he got removed from being governor of hispaniola. Don't know why people keep pushing the ahistorical vision you're pushing here.
    He was removed because he fell out with the Spanish crown in Castile, a crown that can only be called hypocrites in their own right, alongside all the contemporaries that called him brutal. Imagine the hypocrisy of a kingdom that's been the most fervent sponsor of the catholic inquisition calling someone brutal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post

    People often "forget" this side of the story. He was a monster even in his days.
    As opposed to what, the catholic inquisition that boiled, flayed and dismembered people it considered heretics? The inquisition that all of Columbus' European contemporaries had to bow their head to in order to avoid a similar fate?

  7. #16467
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    He was removed because he fell out with the Spanish crown in Castile, a crown that can only be called hypocrites in their own right, alongside all the contemporaries that called him brutal. Imagine the hypocrisy of a kingdom that's been the most fervent sponsor of the catholic inquisition calling someone brutal.
    Ah... more of the same ol' "two wrongs make a right" bs. /yawn

  8. #16468
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    That's not a good defence to idolize him. You would understand this if you were a bit smarter.
    If you were a bit smarter you'd understand that I'm not idolizing him, but that would require the understanding of just how ridiculous it is to talk about a man that lived 600 years ago like we're going to turn him over to the ICC.

  9. #16469
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    He was removed because he fell out with the Spanish crown in Castile, a crown that can only be called hypocrites in their own right, alongside all the contemporaries that called him brutal. Imagine the hypocrisy of a kingdom that's been the most fervent sponsor of the catholic inquisition calling someone brutal.
    Imagine how awful your methods had to have been to be removed for being too brutal while governing by spain, the most fervent sponsor of the catholic inquisition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  10. #16470
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Ah... more of the same ol' "two wrongs make a right" bs. /yawn
    Two? All of Spain at the time was a cesspool of degenerate inquisition.

    Don't worry though, nobody is stopping you from reporting Columbus to your local police station.

  11. #16471
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    If you were a bit smarter you'd understand that I'm not idolizing him
    So, your conversation is entirely pointless then. Understood.

  12. #16472
    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I said nothing I said nothing about Ukraine sovereignty. We're talking about Ukraine's neutrality when it comes to the US (NATO) and Russia. Ukraine gave up the nukes it inherited from the USSR and the grounds that the Ukraine is allowed to and remain neutral. Ukraine's geographic location is strategically important to the foreign policy of the US and Russia in regards to the other so ease any problems the two over Ukraine, Ukraine was supposed to be allowed to be neutral. The US and Russia have sense tested the terms of that neutrality over the years. Some Ukrainian leaders even tested the waters at times. Long story short, US and Russia tugged at Ukraine for years and a conflict was inevitable unless both countries reset on the situation. Neither did, Ukraine pays the ultimate price.
    Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.
    Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine.
    Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine to influence their politics.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budape...rances#Content

    Claiming the Bucharest Memorandum was about turning Ukraine into a neutral buffer state is just bullshit. The US and UK have not violated Ukraine's independence or sovereignty, have not threatened Ukraine with the use of force nor economically pressured Ukraine to influence its politics.

    The Ukraine is not bound to never join a side, the treaty was for Ukraine to do what it wanted itself, not have outside powers dictate internal policy. If Ukraine wants to join NATO that is not a violation of the treaty so long as its Ukraine's own decision to do so.

    And the US, not the UK, has threatened Ukraine into joining NATO. The only one who has done that is Russia by showing that there is no other protection from Russian aggression.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  13. #16473
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Imagine how awful your methods had to have been to be removed for being too brutal while governing by spain, the most fervent sponsor of the catholic inquisition.
    And you think politics and greed didn't play a role in this case? I think it's naive to believe that Castile wanted him gone only because he was brutal.

  14. #16474
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    And you think politics and greed didn't play a role in this case? I think it's naive to believe that Castile wanted him gone only because he was brutal.
    You seem to have a hardon for him.

  15. #16475
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    So, your conversation is entirely pointless then. Understood.
    It's not pointless. You and multiple others posted about it like you invented the wheel, pretending like there's a point to calling a guy that lived 600 years ago a killer.

  16. #16476
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    It's not pointless. You and multiple others posted about it like you invented the wheel, pretending like there's a point to calling a guy that lived 600 years ago a killer.
    There seems to be a point then. Because he was.

  17. #16477
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    There seems to be a point then. Because he was.
    I would never have guessed.

  18. #16478
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    There seems to be a point then. Because he was.
    Like most of his contemporaries.

  19. #16479
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    And you think politics and greed didn't play a role in this case? I think it's naive to believe that Castile wanted him gone only because he was brutal.
    While you're right that greed played a part, it was literally because his tactics were leading to wide scale revolts, making the colony unprofitable. If he hadn't been such a rapine, murderous asshole, things wouldn't have gotten so bad. The reason his tactics weren't the norm is because they didn't work. They're too brutal to work without the type of tech we have now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Like most of his contemporaries.
    This is false.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  20. #16480
    Back on topic, let's be hopeful for a minute and assume Ukraine is fully able to push Russia out of it's territory. What happens then?

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