Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Kaleredar]

Wonder what would be @Shaclker defense about the Moskva.

Anyway, it just proves the total incompetence in the Russian army, either because they did not protect the ship or because they let her explodes by herself. I'll miss that ship. I guess I can still play in Wows !

My guess would be either 1) completely ignore it or 2) explain how Russia is Amir to easily replace an entire ship despite their dwindling supply and technology lines and how this is actually a victory for Russia because if Russia had blown up a theoretical Ukrainian warship Ukraine wouldn’t have been able to replace theirs.

[Specialka]

My guess would be either 1) completely ignore it or 2) explain how Russia is Amir to easily replace an entire ship despite their dwindling supply and technology lines and how this is actually a victory for Russia because if Russia had blown up a theoretical Ukrainian warship Ukraine wouldn’t have been able to replace theirs.

Well, Russia can't replace her either. They do not have the drydock to do so.

[Xyonai]

Wonder what would be @Shaclker defense about the Moskva.

Anyway, it just proves the total incompetence in the Russian army, either because they did not protect the ship or because they let her explodes by herself. I'll miss that ship. I guess I can still play in Wows !

Well we just had a guy show up to snark 'Oh well if the ship -really- sank, then how come everyone onboard wasn't obliterated?!' like that was some big brained take when we can verify that it not only sunk but most of the crew got absolutely fucked. To gauge the level of quality one might expect from excuses.

[Liftbrul]

Former member of the Duma is saying only 58 of the 510 crew survived.

Good riddance to bad rubbish. Nothing of value was lost.

[PhaelixWW]

If you're not interested in watching, I'll summarize: No, most Russians don't support it. The majority of older Russians MIGHT support it, but the reason why polls say tons of Russians support the "special operation" and Putin is because if they DON'T, they'll go to jail. A lot of them also just hang up whenever a poll appears.

Whenever I see that poll, I always imagine the following scenario:

"We polled people who support Putin, at gunpoint, to determine whether the average people of Russia support Putin. 80% said yes!"

*squinting_Fry_meme.jpg*

Waaaaaaiiiiiiit...

[Breccia]

Well, Russia can't replace her either. They do not have the drydock to do so.

Wait, they don't? What happened to it? They must have at some point.

[Santti]

Wait, they don't? What happened to it? They must have at some point.

I'm guessing it's the dry dock that's not dry anymore. Because it sank.

[PhaelixWW]

Wait, they don't? What happened to it? They must have at some point.

Uh, not really, no. It was built by the USSR, not Russia. In fact, it was built in Ukraine, so...

[Specialka]

Wait, they don't? What happened to it? They must have at some point.

I think they have only one drydock for those ships in St Petersburg and the retrofit at those is not over. So no, they can't replace it.

[Breccia]

Uh, not really, no. It was built by the USSR, not Russia. In fact, it was built in Ukraine, so...

I'm guessing it's the dry dock that's not dry anymore. Because it sank.

...wow. This is "our boat exploded" levels of embarrassing. Neither of these explanations make Russia look good at all.

[PhaelixWW]

Also, per NYTimes:

Russia’s Black Sea flagship was hit by 2 Ukrainian missiles, a U.S. official says.

Two Ukrainian Neptune missiles hit Russia’s flagship Moskva in the Black Sea, a senior Defense official said on Friday, providing the first American confirmation that the sinking of the Russian cruiser was the result of a Ukrainian strike.

Moscow had said the ship sank in stormy seas after an accidental fire caused an explosion.

The official said that American intelligence assessments say there were a number of casualties as the ship was struck but could not provide a specific number. He said that there were also some Russian sailors who survived and were seen being picked up by lifeboats.

The ship was struck about 65 nautical miles south of Odesa and moved under her own power for some time after the initial strikes, before eventually sinking on Thursday. As the only Russian cruiser of that class in the Black Sea, Moskva’s sinking is a significant blow to Russia’s war plans, the official said.

“She had cruise missiles on that ship that are now at the bottom of the Black Sea,” the official said.

[Breccia]

I think they have only one drydock for those ships in St Petersburg and the retrofit at those is not over. So no, they can't replace it.

This is only marginally better. "Our only dry dock is being renovated" is at least less embarrassing.

- - - Updated - - -

"Moscow had said the ship sank in stormy seas after an accidental fire caused an explosion."

Once again, we should all marvel and/or laugh at Russia for using this as their defense. Even if this is true, they let this aptly-named vessel randomly catch fire, explode, and sink on the way to...

(looks at last page)

Nowhere. It was being towed nowhere.

[PhaelixWW]

@Breccia, reposting this from yesterday.

It cost Russia nothing, the Soviets built it. And that is the real problem, these ships are like WH40K tech, they are ancient relics of a previous age. The forgeworlds that made them have long since fallen to the Xenos, and only the muttered chants of the techpriests can coax the tired machine spirits to barely function.

It is a slight exaggeration, but not much. The Moskva was made in Mykolaiv, Ukraine. So were all her sister ships, and so was the Kiev class, the previous Moskva class, and the tragically smokey carrier, the Kuznetsov (And so were the current Lionang and Vikram, in the Chinese and Indian navies). One of the few things worse then the condition of Russian ships is the condition of Russian shipyards. They have a single drydock for the Kirovs in St. Petersburg, which is where all four were built, one at a time. The Admiral Nakimov went into that drydock for refit in 1997, and didn't come back out until 2020, and that drydock isn't ready for another ship still.

You remember that whole deal when the floating drydock sank under the Kuznetsov? That happened because Ukraine owns the drydock it was built in, they just cobbled together some mad max style floating drydock to make up for it, and it sank.

TLDR: It doesn't matter how much the Soviets paid for Moskva, what matters is that the Soviets actually owned shipyards that could build these warships. Russia doesn't. Russia cannot build cruisers.

[Breccia]

reposting this from yesterday.

Holy shit, it's both. They had two options, both lethally embarrassing, and they picked both.

[PhaelixWW]

Holy shit, it's both. They had two options, both lethally embarrassing, and they picked both.

You know what they say: "Go big, or get towed to nowhere and sink."

Wait... that's not quite right...

- - - Updated - - -

The Guardian: Kyiv officials claims to have found bodies of hundreds of murdered civilians

More than 900 civilian bodies have been discovered in the region surrounding Kyiv following the withdrawal of Russian forces — almost all of them shot dead, the Associated Press quotes local police as saying.

The number is double that announced by Ukrainian authorities almost two weeks ago and the presence of the gunshot wounds indicates many were “simply executed”, officers said.

Andriy Nebytov, the head of Kyiv’s regional police force, said the bodies were abandoned in the streets or given temporary burials. He cited police data indicating that 95% died from gunshot wounds, AP reports.

"Consequently, we understand that under the [Russian] occupation, people were simply executed in the streets."

More bodies are being found every day, under rubble and in mass graves, he added. The largest number of victims were found in Bucha; where there were more than 350.

According to Nebytov, utilities workers in Bucha gathered and buried bodies in the Kyiv suburb while it remained under Russian control. Russian troops, he added, were “tracking down” people who expressed strong pro-Ukrainian views.

[Rasulis]

To follow up.

Russian shipyards stop ship production due to lack of funds, foreign parts - GUR

Granted it is based on information provided by Ukraine Intelligence Agency. However, in combination with what we know so far, it might not be too far off from the truth.

We don't have any specs of the Neptune missiles which the Ukrainian kept very close. However, unless the radar system has been upgraded since, a cruiser built in the 70s will have problem dealing with subsonic anti-ship missiles flying low to the point of skimming the waves.

[Breccia]

Granted it is based on information provided by Ukraine Intelligence Agency.

If the Russians block all information except theirs and Ukraine's, leaving me with only those two options, I will pick the side not blocking information. If only out of spite.

[Rasulis]

You know what, we haven't checked in on how the Russian st0nks are doing lately. Keep in mind, these are the prices in the Moscow Exchange, not the pennies-on-the-dollar prices in exchanges not located in price-fixing Russia, so they're probably doing pretty...

Oh... oh, wait, those are... those are going downward. That's not good. But... Putin is dumping government funds into those stocks, buying back a lot in an effort to pump up the value. Well, maybe that was just a blip and the total for the last week is...

Erm. That's... also not good. It just seems to be going further downhill. Maybe... maybe Putin already pushed those stocks so high right after the markets reopened that this is just them settling down afterward? If that's the case, then we can just take a look at the 6 month chart and see...

Huh. So... no. MoEx is just taking a dump, I guess.

Got it.

And these four st0nks (not including the MoEx index) are by far the st0nks with the largest market cap in the Moscow Exchange.

Whomp whomp.

We will see the real impact of the sanction when Russian manufacturers run out of foreign parts, and the production lines ground to a complete halt. Probably sometimes around May or June. Depending on the size of their stockpile of foreign parts.

[Poopymonster]

If the Russians block all information except theirs and Ukraine's, leaving me with only those two options, I will pick the side not blocking information. If only out of spite.

As I said before, I'm in the camp of the Ukraine having access to intel from the US and others on anything that casts a shadow in that region. Outside of things the countries talking deem sensitive. How much of it the Ukraine says publicly and how it's spun is up to them.

[PhaelixWW]

We don't have any specs of the Neptune missiles which the Ukrainian kept very close. However, unless the radar system has been upgraded since, a cruiser built in the 70s will have problem dealing with subsonic anti-ship missiles flying low to the point of skimming the waves.

Per WSJ:

Sunken Russian Cruiser Moskva Had Undergone Extensive Retrofit

The Russian cruiser Moskva that sank Thursday after a fire on board had only returned to operational status last year following an extensive retrofit to improve its capability, the U.K. Defense Ministry said.

The Ukrainian military said Thursday it had struck the warship with Ukrainian-developed Neptune cruise missiles. There has been no independent verification of Ukraine’s usage of the Neptune, a weapon that has so far been under development. Russia said that the source of the fire was unknown and that the ship sank in stormy weather due to structural damage as it was being towed to port.

The Moskva, the flagship of Russia’s Black Sea fleet and one of only three Slava-class cruisers in the Russian navy, had served as both a command vessel and air-defense node for the Black Sea fleet, the ministry said Friday.

The loss of the Moskva, whatever the cause of its sinking, means that Russia has now lost two key naval assets since the start of the war, the ministry said. A Ukrainian missile attack last month destroyed a large landing ship, the Saratov, in the occupied Azov Sea port of Berdyansk, setting back Russia’s plans to use the port as a logistics hub.

“Both events will likely lead Russia to review its maritime posture in the Black Sea,” the ministry said.

Whomp whomp.