Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Santti]

The child rapists draw the line at chemical weapons and would lose morale.

Well, obviously they wouldn't give two shits, but there appear to be many that are not fans of this war, and have rebelled against their own commanding officers because of it.

[Belize]

"she" sinks. Ships are refered as "she".

'It' is about 500 feet below sea level, so you'll have to excuse us for misgendering an oversized and very expensive coffin.

[Corvus]

The mayor of Moscow says that 200,000 jobs are at risk in the city after foreign companies leave. That's just in Moscow.

[snebb]

And now the first video (even if it's short) of the Moskva before it sinks.

Such a violent storm. No wonder it sank

[Specialka]

'It' is about 500 feet below sea level, so you'll have to excuse us for misgendering an oversized and very expensive coffin.

I am confident that, now, you won't make that mistake again.

[Makabreska]

I am confident that, now, you won't make that mistake again.

Well, he did just make it. Really weird and nitpicky thing to start to point out.

[Arrashi]

New Azov kino dropped and i gotta say, that guy tossing granades at injured/covering ruskies was super based. Not that many of them were alive at that point.

[Poopymonster]

More and more this old practice is dying. It is appropriate.

They've also moved to the more gender neutral terms for Russian soldiers. Disposable. Expendable. Fodder.

[Belize]

They've also moved to the more gender neutral terms for Russian soldiers. Disposable. Expendable. Fodder.

Hasn't that been the Russia tactic since like... the Napoleonic War...?

[Santti]

Hasn't that been the Russia tactic since like... the Napoleonic War...?

Yep. Nothing has changed on that front.

[Breccia]

And now the first video (even if it's short) of the Moskva before it sinks.

Man, that sure is a massive storm ready to sink that ship! (sarcasm)

[AntiFascistVoter]

Man, that sure is a massive storm ready to sink that ship! (sarcasm)

Loving the irony that super rescue tug Shakhter (SB-922) failed to rescues the sinking Russian propaganda war ship..


Putin and his 11Dimension chess of spending more on Internet Disinfo than fleet modernization ... LOL

[Breccia]

Who knows?

Let's run this a step at a time.

Maybe they can't properly utilize them without also affecting their own troops?

While we know Russia is more than willing to irradiate their own troops, there is a difference between "soldiers stationed in Chernobyl dig holes and drive vehicles throwing up dust" and "directly subjected to fallout from their own weapons". Putin's evil, but not suicidal. Blowing up his own troops is not on the agenda.

If Putin were to order a mass retreat, maybe there would be some concern.

Maybe they fear the morale that is already awful among the Russian army, would only get worse for doing something atrocious like that, and have deemed it not worth it?

We have seen war crimes committed by Russia's troops, but not all of them. Some just walked away from their working tanks. Not only do chemical and biological weapons leave really disturbing corpses, there's also the above-mentioned "did they know that wouldn't hit us?" effect. I, for one, would not be pleased to know my commanding officer only escaped murdering me because the wind changed that hour.

Maybe they have deemed them simply ineffectual, or lack a proper delivery method for them, when simple bombs seem to do the job well enough?

This is a big one. Right now, there is no need to deploy nukes. A gun will kill the rat in your basement, but why do that when a mousetrap or tennis racket will do the job?

We've often discussed Russia's nukes and how they might just flat-out not work. Russia's nukes are a deterrent, unless it's made publicly clear they don't work. If they fire one at Ukraine and it (a) doesn't launch (b) explodes in the silo (c) explodes in a random non-target location (d) dud, the rest of the world has a completely different view on beating Russia into a red Communist paste.

Maybe they fear rest of the world would then isolate and sanction Russia to hell for it? More so than they currently are being isolated and sanctioned, that is.

This is likely a large contributor as well. China and India will apparently put up with a lot, but "nukes neighbor just because" is likely not on that list. Bare minimum, neither of them would lift a finger to save Russia if the rest of the world decides enough's enough.

[Azadina]

This is a big one. Right now, there is no need to deploy nukes. A gun will kill the rat in your basement, but why do that when a mousetrap or tennis racket will do the job?

So in this analogy the gun is the nukes, and rat (as in, a vermin infestation) is Ukrainians? Somehow this rubs me the wrong way.

[Breccia]

Loving the irony that super rescue tug Shakhter

Oh, I get it...it's because he can't make free throws.

So of course, these images are not doing Russia's propaganda-spewing turnip-scented mouthpieces any favors.

This is a missile ship. While it has on board cannons and those cannons use ammo, (a) not to the extent of that level of damage, and (b) the ammo looks like this:


While those external pods could explode, that fire is clearly internal. There's too much soot on too many vents. And I can't imagine why there'd be so much extra cannon ammo downstairs, either. Those pods are external for a reason. In fact, you're looking at the reason.

The ship has S-300F and OSA-MA armaments onboard, but those are on the rear of the ship. That part clearly did not explode.

The front of the ship has the P-500 and P-1000 missile launchers. The smoke is thick, but it doesn't seem to be coming from those.

I suppose it's possible one of the ship's missiles exploded...but that would have instantly torn the ship in half. The Shak tug would have arrived to find a few ripples and Russian-speaking bubbles.

That structure with the thickest smoke? That's the command tower at the front of the ship. I'm no expert, but I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee(deep breath)eeeeeeeeeeeeeally question anyone who stores their heavy munitions under the captain's chair. Leaving that design flaw (if it exists) aside, if I were firing missiles at an enemy ship with the intent to disable or destroy it, I'd aim at the control tower, for the same reason I go for headshots in FPS games.

All the lifeboats are missing and the helicopter pad is empty. Everyone left. Either they were ordered to do so in hostile waters, or they just noped the fuck out without waiting. And they're gone before the rescue tug showed up. I don't see anything in the water. And I can't imagine the Shak's been mounted in a long time, considering the only thing it does is string people along.

And finally, the angle that ship is listing when the fire and rescue tugs are just now arriving? The flagship is also...I want to say 5 meters lower in the water than it should be. That combination is irrecoverable. There is nothing Shak can do but watch in horror as the Russian flagship goes down in...well not flames, the water put those out, but the plume of smoke with "I am a complete failure" written on it was visible for miles. There is nothing they could do at that point -- there is no pumping system on any ship that exists that could undo that damage, and even if there was, it clearly wasn't being used on the flagship and the Shak wouldn't have had time to hook one up, no matter how much Shak enjoys sucking off the Russian military.

There is nothing, nothing, in these images that suggest "random-ass ammo fire" more than "ship was intentionally hit by ship-murdering munition". Possible? Yes, but Occam's Razor applies.

Which brings up my actual question: how hard did Russia try to get this ship back to port? Losing your flagship sucks a whole lot, but they were pushing the story "that could be anyone's ammo explosion" really hard. If they got that to any form of civilization, with two giant black craters on the side with "Russian warship, go fuck yourself" written on them in Ukrainian Braille, there'd be 100's of Russian posted pics within seconds and the story would be instantly destroyed. I'm wondering, did they get the tug out there, not to tow it to port, but to tow it to open water and dump it where nobody could find it? I'd love to hear from the Shak, but they were likely given a line of Russian govt propaganda to tell which wasn't the truth. Nothing the Shak says should be taken seriously.

- - - Updated - - -

So in this analogy the gun is the nukes, and rat (as in, a vermin infestation) is Ukrainians?

You're reading way too much into it.

[DarkTZeratul]

So in this analogy the gun is the nukes, and rat (as in, a vermin infestation) is Ukrainians? Somehow this rubs me the wrong way.

I mean, from the perspective of the Russians...

[Iphie]

There is nothing, nothing, in these images that suggest "random-ass ammo fire" more than "ship was intentionally hit by ship-murdering munition". Possible? Yes, but Occam's Razor applies.

Which brings up my actual question: how hard did Russia try to get this ship back to port? Losing your flagship sucks a whole lot, but they were pushing the story "that could be anyone's ammo explosion" really hard. If they got that to any form of civilization, with two giant black craters on the side with "Russian warship, go fuck yourself" written on them in Ukrainian Braille, there'd be 100's of Russian posted pics within seconds and the story would be instantly destroyed. I'm wondering, did they get the tug out there, not to tow it to port, but to tow it to open water and dump it where nobody could find it? I'd love to hear from the Shak, but they were likely given a line of Russian govt propaganda to tell which wasn't the truth. Nothing the Shak says should be taken seriously.

Ok, I read today a rumour that there were two nuclear warheads onboard, now I'm not taking that *too* seriously but I can only imagine what would happen if those had gone up if it was true (I know, I know, fail safes and stuff, but I'm not putting my faith in those). Dumping the ship under water is suddenly not the worst idea.

Again, I'm not taking it too seriously but not discounting it 100% either. I mean, it would certainly explain why the crew would bail without waiting for support.

[DarkTZeratul]

Ok, I read today a rumour that there were two nuclear warheads onboard, now I'm not taking that *too* seriously but I can only imagine what would happen if those had gone up if it was true

Well, the short version is that setting a nuclear warhead on fire will not cause it to go off. You'd probably get some horribly radioactive smoke, and at worst there might be a conventional explosion that scatters nuclear material like a dirty bomb. Triggering the fusion fission reaction that results in a nuclear explosion requires some pretty precise mechanical actions inside of the warhead that aren't going to just happen by accident.

[Edge-]

Wait...so the Moskova or whatever may have had nukes is what I'm getting from this? Seems fishy as hell but like...oh man if Russia lost a few of their nukes in this war on top of everything else that'd be hilarious. Terrifying, but hilarious. Hopefully this is just fun chatter though, because I don't know how comfortable I feel with a few nukes sitting down there just waiting for someone to snatch them up.

[Arrashi]

Wait...so the Moskova or whatever may have had nukes is what I'm getting from this? Seems fishy as hell but like...oh man if Russia lost a few of their nukes in this war on top of everything else that'd be hilarious. Terrifying, but hilarious. Hopefully this is just fun chatter though, because I don't know how comfortable I feel with a few nukes sitting down there just waiting for someone to snatch them up.

I dont think we have any solid evidence, but there are rumors that it could have 2 tactical warheads (probably for Odessa). Guess we gotta monitor radiation in the wrackage area, so if any of them starts leaking we will know.