1. #17281
    Void Lord Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    And the absence of any of the lifeboats and the light craft on the deck of the Moskva indicate that either a) they were all used, and probably not by one person each, or b) that they were purposely removed to hide the appearance of mass casualties.
    Actually I just went back looking at older, pre-sunk pics of the flagship. I...didn't see a lot of what I'd call traditional lifeboats. I mean I see this one:



    closer to the back where I think there's a crane...but nothing else. I assume the remaining lifeboats are inflatable, but it also means when I said earlier "I don't see any lifeboats" it proves nothing, because I wouldn't see them whether they were there or not.

    If anyone can tell one way or the other, let me know.

    EDIT: And I'm guessing "put on life jacket and jump into ocean" wasn't in any Russian's to-do list, either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Seeing the images of the damage hours after the event
    It would fit the "bulkheads were not sealed" if half the crew were burned to death by the fire the bulkheads were supposed to contain.
    Last edited by Breccia; 2022-04-18 at 07:41 PM.

  2. #17282
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Actually I just went back looking at older, pre-sunk pics of the flagship. I...didn't see a lot of what I'd call traditional lifeboats. I mean I see this one closer to the back where I think there's a crane...but nothing else. I assume the remaining lifeboats are inflatable, but it also means when I said earlier "I don't see any lifeboats" it proves nothing, because I wouldn't see them whether they were there or not.
    They're there, you're just not recognizing them for what they are.



    The one to which I think you're referring (which looks more like a speedboat) is the light craft I mentioned.


    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    It would fit the "bulkheads were not sealed" if half the crew were burned to death by the fire the bulkheads were supposed to contain.
    It doesn't exactly take long to run away from the fire.

    If the missiles caused enough damage to nearly instantly flood the entire belowdecks with fire and catch that many people unaware, then I doubt the ship would have survived to daylight.

    Of course, things are more complicated if the ship would have survived the initial missiles strikes, but then took too much more damage, surprising much more of the crew, when a hypothetical secondary munitions explosion occurred.
    R.I.P. Democracy


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  3. #17283
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Yeah, there's always that doubt in my mind like "wouldn't a Russian flagship have a couple of nukes all the time as default armament?" Apparently the answer is "no".
    Surface combatants aren't often equipped with nukes, even if they might have the capacity to fire them.

    During the Cold War the US often had them on carriers, but since '91, they are restricted to nuclear ballistic subs (there are non-nuclear ballistic subs too).

    A major reason why nukes aren't put on surface vessels is that most countries have specific legal restrictions prohibiting nuclear armed ships from docking in their ports or entering their territorial waters. Surface ships often enter ports of other nations especially on long deployments to refuel, resupply, give the crew shore leave, do maintenance etc. Sailing into a Spanish or Egyptian port with nukes on board might not be the bestest idea. The locals might not appreciate it.

  4. #17284
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    It doesn't exactly take long to run away from the fire.
    Its not the fire that kill, its the smoke... Now imagen that the explosion did wreck the electric system so the light went out, so you have to evacuate in a poorly lit smoke-filled corridor.....

  5. #17285
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    FWIW, the Slava class has even more lifeboats amidships:



    No idea if those ones were usable on the Moskva, though, since that's right near where the fire is in those photos.


    Also, looks like the new Russian offensive in the east has officially started.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantomen View Post
    Its not the fire that kill, its the smoke... Now imagen that the explosion did wreck the electric system so the light went out, so you have to evacuate in a poorly lit smoke-filled corridor.....
    People can still run faster than the smoke spreads through corridors... unless they're right next to the blast, in which case they're probably SoL anyway. And I can almost guarantee that there's emergency lighting in the corridors on a naval vessel.

    Surprise might get 50 or 100 of them, but it's almost impossible to imagine it getting more than half of the nearly 500 crew.
    R.I.P. Democracy


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  6. #17286
    Warchief Torched's Avatar
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    https://twitter.com/Andrew__Roth/sta...2F20222249465d

    "Kremlin is not just calling war crimes fake but now promoting the accused. Putin has now awarded the 64th motor rifle brigade the title of “Guards.” It was among the units that was reported to be operating in Bucha."

    How nice of him to reward the rapist and murderers...
    “A man will contend for a false faith stronger than he will a true one,” he observes. “The truth defends itself, but a falsehood must be defended by its adherents: first to prove it to themselves and secondly, that they may appear right in the estimation of their friends.”
    -The Acts of Pilate.

  7. #17287
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torched View Post
    How nice of him to reward the rapist and murderers...
    Quite possibly a bribe to keep them quiet.

    I wonder if Putin will also send them back into the east at the sharp end of the spear in the hopes that they get silenced permanently.
    R.I.P. Democracy


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    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  8. #17288
    Warchief Torched's Avatar
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    https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianCo...and_strategic/

    "Google Maps has opened all military and strategic objects of russia - they became available in maximum resolution (up to 0.5 meters per pixel). Any user can see Russian airfields, naval bases, launch silos of intercontinental ballistic missiles, firing ranges, command posts, etc."

    This picture is pretty hilarious:
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQo4hJUW...jpg&name=small
    “A man will contend for a false faith stronger than he will a true one,” he observes. “The truth defends itself, but a falsehood must be defended by its adherents: first to prove it to themselves and secondly, that they may appear right in the estimation of their friends.”
    -The Acts of Pilate.

  9. #17289
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    It's an "it" I always hated the "she" in referencing ships and other specific objects always had a misogynistic tone about it
    Wait'll you hear about tanks.

    Tanks with main cannons over a certain size (pretty small; this was established in WWI) are male. Tanks without such cannons and reliant on machineguns are female.

    Modern tanks generally have both, so they're pretty much all hermaphrodites.


  10. #17290
    Immortal Poopymonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Wait'll you hear about tanks.

    Tanks with main cannons over a certain size (pretty small; this was established in WWI) are male. Tanks without such cannons and reliant on machineguns are female.

    Modern tanks generally have both, so they're pretty much all hermaphrodites.
    Fucking great. Thanks to you, now we get to hear the Cuntservatives talk about how tanks need bigger cannons and no smaller weapons. All tanks. All vehicles. Big. Phallic. Cannons. Bigly. Yuge ones.
    "What, you got a lil bitch gun on that APC? It got an Easy Bake Oven in there too for you?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  11. #17291
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkTZeratul View Post
    You are correct, my mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaydin View Post
    Fission reaction, IIRC, not fusion.
    It's first one, then the other. Fission to compress enough to do fusion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  12. #17292
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    It's an "it" I always hated the "she" in referencing ships and other specific objects always had a misogynistic tone about it
    Well, educate yourself then.

  13. #17293
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Well, educate yourself then.
    Uh, imma do you one better:

    Who the fuck cares what the pronoun of an inanimate object at the bottom of the Black Sea is?
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  14. #17294
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    It's first one, then the other. Fission to compress enough to do fusion.
    That's the difference between an atomic bomb (fission) and a hydrogen bomb (fission to ignite fusion).

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    CNN: US State Department looking at possibly labeling Russia a state sponsor of terrorism
    US State Department officials are looking at every tool available to them to hold Russia accountable for the war in Ukraine, including the possibility of labeling Russia a state sponsor of terrorism, according to a senior administration official. The process could take weeks before a determination is made, the official said.

    “We're taking a close look at the facts. We're taking a close look at the law,” said State Department spokesperson Ned Price on CNN Monday when asked about the possibility of designating Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism on Monday. “Whether it is this authority, whether it's any other authority available to us under the law, we will apply it if it's effective and appropriate.”

    The definition of a state sponsor of terrorism is a country that has “repeatedly provided support for acts of international terrorism,” according to the State Department. There are only four countries that are currently labeled state sponsors of terrorism by the US: North Korea, Iran, Cuba and Syria.

    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky asked US President Biden in one of their recent phone conversations to designate Russia a state sponsor of terrorism, CNN reported last week.

    The US has already rolled out severe sanctions on Russia over the Ukraine war, but adding Russia to the list would be a symbolic move that would also inflict an even greater cost on Russia’s economy. It would lead to actions such as prohibiting Russia from buying certain items that can be used commercial or militarily, and sanctions on other people and countries still engaged in certain trade with Russia.
    R.I.P. Democracy


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  15. #17295
    The Lightbringer D Luniz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Ok, I read today a rumour that there were two nuclear warheads onboard, now I'm not taking that *too* seriously but I can only imagine what would happen if those had gone up if it was true (I know, I know, fail safes and stuff, but I'm not putting my faith in those). Dumping the ship under water is suddenly not the worst idea.

    Again, I'm not taking it too seriously but not discounting it 100% either. I mean, it would certainly explain why the crew would bail without waiting for support.
    I'm sure when this is all said and done, someone is going to dive that ship to at the least, pump out the fuel before it ruins the fishing in the area.
    "Law and Order", lots of places have had that, Russia, North Korea, Saddam's Iraq.
    Laws can be made to enforce order of cruelty and brutality.
    Equality and Justice, that is how you have peace and a society that benefits all.

  16. #17296
    Immortal Poopymonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Luniz View Post
    I'm sure when this is all said and done, someone is going to dive that ship to at the least, pump out the fuel before it ruins the fishing in the area.
    Reverse card. It's a Russian ship, what little fuel there was burned up already.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok


    If you look, you can see the straw man walking a red herring up a slippery slope coming to join this conversation.

  17. #17297
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    That's the difference between an atomic bomb (fission) and a hydrogen bomb (fission to ignite fusion).

    - - - Updated - - -

    CNN: US State Department looking at possibly labeling Russia a state sponsor of terrorism
    I'll be the first one to make the snyde 'Oh good now do Saudi Arabia' comment but this is a good step at least. For better or worse, the Western world Follows the US's example in a lot of this nonsense so doing this might put more pressure on wavering countries to be harsher on Russia.

  18. #17298

  19. #17299
    Old God PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampiregenesis View Post
    Donbas doesn't look good.
    Are we repeating 2014 headlines now?
    R.I.P. Democracy


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  20. #17300
    Russia seems to have gone with the attack everywhere at once plan. No single point of attack with concentrated forces but an attack across the entire frontline.

    Sounds like a desperate last throw of the dice that will get a lot of troops killed.

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