1. #19001
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    It’s also probably pretty necessary for Ukraine to quickly secure some sort of defense agreement with the EU.

    Russia clearly can’t be trusted to keep its word unless the threat of force exists to compel them to.
    Yeah, but this represents the bare minimum, the rest can be sussed out in the deal itself. Ukraine has asked China to be a guarantor as well as several EU countries. I'd expect russia to demand, at the least, Donetsk and Luhansk in this scenario and regardless of what Ukraine wants the status of those two needs to be clear otherwise they'll just be a pawn in a couple of years again.

    Note: I'm not saying Ukraine should give up on them, just that, as the article shows, it is unclear if Zelensky included them in his statement.

  2. #19002
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Yeah, but this represents the bare minimum, the rest can be sussed out in the deal itself. Ukraine has asked China to be a guarantor as well as several EU countries. I'd expect russia to demand, at the least, Donetsk and Luhansk in this scenario and regardless of what Ukraine wants the status of those two needs to be clear otherwise they'll just be a pawn in a couple of years again.

    Note: I'm not saying Ukraine should give up on them, just that, as the article shows, it is unclear if Zelensky included them in his statement.
    Zelensky would be insane to expect Russia to abide by this either in wording or in spirit.

    All Russia would do is withdraw, regroup, and keep funding separatists to break them up from the inside and take them out that way. These are also people who have killed people on foreign sovereign soil before across the globe, don't think for a moment they wouldn't continue it there.

    Zelensky would probably end up dead within the next 2 years from some "Random Accident", poisoning, botched home invasion, car accident or something similar.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
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  3. #19003
    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    I am not referring to Eastern Europe, but the rest of the World, which was mostly colonized and/or subjected to meddling and proxy wars by the likes of France, U.K. and U.S., to an extent to this very day.

    It might come as shocking to some, but the U.S. and/or Europe are not universally perceived as the center of the World. In most parts of it, Ukraine does not warrant more interest than Myanmar, Syria, Yemen, Ethiopia or Congo to name a few, beside the obvious impact on their livelihoods.
    It might come as a shock to you. But was in Myanmar, Syria, Yemen and Ethiopia, does not worsen the food crisis in African countries as much.

    While Europe is not the center of the world. The world wide impact of Russia invading a country that supplies a great deal of food to low and middle income African and Asian countries is profound.

    There's more to it than "jeez now the west thinks it's aaaalll about them again"

  4. #19004
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Zelensky would be insane to expect Russia to abide by this either in wording or in spirit.

    All Russia would do is withdraw, regroup, and keep funding separatists to break them up from the inside and take them out that way. These are also people who have killed people on foreign sovereign soil before across the globe, don't think for a moment they wouldn't continue it there.

    Zelensky would probably end up dead within the next 2 years from some "Random Accident", poisoning, botched home invasion, car accident or something similar.
    I have NO doubt that Zelenskyy is FULLY aware of all this, that's why he wants security guarantees from others, and the sanctions would mean that rebuilding will be hard, right now I've read anywhere from 5 years to two decades before they would be at pre invasion levels, with a minimum of 5 years *just* for manpower, so that's not the equipment which would take significantly longer.

  5. #19005
    Over 9000! zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    It might come as a shock to you. But was in Myanmar, Syria, Yemen and Ethiopia, does not worsen the food crisis in African countries as much.

    While Europe is not the center of the world. The world wide impact of Russia invading a country that supplies a great deal of food to low and middle income African and Asian countries is profound.

    There's more to it than "jeez now the west thinks it's aaaalll about them again"
    And it's also in Europe's best interest to help them out with that as much as it feasibly can for that matter.

  6. #19006
    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    I have NO doubt that Zelenskyy is FULLY aware of all this, that's why he wants security guarantees from others, and the sanctions would mean that rebuilding will be hard, right now I've read anywhere from 5 years to two decades before they would be at pre invasion levels, with a minimum of 5 years *just* for manpower, so that's not the equipment which would take significantly longer.
    True, but we know they wouldn’t go just that route, you would have Russia funding extremist within Ukraine the entire time and stoking every bit of division they can.

    Just look at all the damage they have done around the globe without firing a single shot just in Brexit and with Trump, the GOP and the Supreme Court in the US.

    Russia can’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag from the looks of it but they have mastered emboldening racists bigots, xenophobics and other asses into tearing up their own countries for them which is much less direct for them and much cheaper with a proven track record of little to no fighting back.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
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  7. #19007
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphie View Post
    Yeah, but this represents the bare minimum, the rest can be sussed out in the deal itself. Ukraine has asked China to be a guarantor as well as several EU countries. I'd expect russia to demand, at the least, Donetsk and Luhansk in this scenario and regardless of what Ukraine wants the status of those two needs to be clear otherwise they'll just be a pawn in a couple of years again.

    Note: I'm not saying Ukraine should give up on them, just that, as the article shows, it is unclear if Zelensky included them in his statement.
    It is really simple and as I mentioned before like umpteenth times.

    1) Crimea goes to Russia.
    2) "Republics" stay up in the air like before the war.
    3) Some sort of reparations for sanctions relief scheme.

    That would probably be best case scenario for Ukraine in the next several years, because it would mean Russia would clear off Mariupol and Kherson areas.

    Ukraine then can bide its time and maybe get either back if political situation in Russia changes the right way. Though I doubt Russia will give up Crimea even if Putin is not a thing anymore, unless some super pro-Western coup happens.

    I am sure Ukrainian negotiators gun for the above outcome, because realistically it would be a win - it would mean Russia started a war and did not manage to get shit and left worse off than before. Ukraine can sell it at home with "temporarily occupied" remarks and such.

  8. #19008
    Titan Yunru's Avatar
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    Moskva was not part of special operation:


    Yeah right.......
    Don't sweat the details!!!

  9. #19009
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    And it's also in Europe's best interest to help them out with that as much as it feasibly can for that matter.
    Which is the only true reason why most of Europe (looking at you Hungary, Serbia) and other western nations are helping Ukraine. National interest. While it's the moral choice by far, it's not even close to the reason the west is acting. If Morals were a thing in foreign policy half the world would have been told "Stop" through military actions for doing the same or similar stuff Russia is doing in Ukraine.

  10. #19010
    Seems like the 5(?) Panzerhaubitzen 2000 from the Netherlands will be matched with 7 from Germany. Ukraine will get 12 alongside munitions.

    Training usually takes 40 days and will begin next week.

    And it was news to me that Germany deployed 6 Panzerhaubitzen 2000 in Lithuania to reinforce the Germany Nato Battlegroup over there. Must have missed it for some reason.

  11. #19011
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Yeah right.......
    I didn't watch the video (sorry) but the term "threatened" seems excessive at first. But, I am happy to hear about any blowback from Putin's flat-out lying about the war, or his military in general, by claiming that everything is going perfectly but Russian "soldiers" are just doing something top-secret and unrelated to the fact that their letters home come without paychecks and are written in different handwriting. Or, have stopped entirely.

    I know y'all keep calling me out for this, but while the Russian people might be crushed under state-run lying propaganda, even that has its limits when compared to the human soul, which at some point will wonder where their father, husband, or son is. Hell, even the ones that deserted might have trouble writing home, so between the injured, dead, and missing, the number of Russians who suddenly have a hole in their lives a male human once filled is increasing, therefore, so are the number of Russians who firsthand know such a person.

    The next question, is what will that do? This is hyperbole to make a point, but let's say that 50 million Russians all decide enough's enough. That's a revolution, and Putin is eventually found and executed. At what point will the number of people who have had someone important to them vanish without a trace, covered only by an obvious lie from Putin, be enough to cause real change? I mean, we get a mass strike of the working class in oil and steel and Russia collapses in seconds. And that's Communism right there.

  12. #19012
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I mean, we get a mass strike of the working class in oil and steel and Russia collapses in seconds. And that's Communism right there.
    We did it, we found Putin's true 5d Chess plan to bring back the Soviet State!

  13. #19013
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Seems like the 5(?) Panzerhaubitzen 2000 from the Netherlands will be matched with 7 from Germany. Ukraine will get 12 alongside munitions.

    Training usually takes 40 days and will begin next week.

    And it was news to me that Germany deployed 6 Panzerhaubitzen 2000 in Lithuania to reinforce the Germany Nato Battlegroup over there. Must have missed it for some reason.
    The dutch even have 5 of those things? Thats new, thought they had nothing left.

  14. #19014
    Man... on youtube there is this channel called "Österreichs Bundesherr" (Austria's army).

    It's so interesting to hear briefings about the conflict from actual military personal, explaining to you why the russian military fails/failed to encircle the defenders and other stuff.
    You can see how the fortifications work, where they are roughly located at. How the russians try to overwhelm these and what exactly they use and the problems they encounter... as well as how the Ukraine planned their defense.

    It kinda shows in extreme detail why the Gepard tanks will be very important as well.
    Basically, they explain how the weapons will be used and what they are up against.
    They explain how the russians target the supply lines and where and how they hit them and stuff like that.

    Really competent and informative stuff especially due to the way they present it with maps, pictures and the portrayel of battle lines/battleplans etc..



    This is kinda..... fun... to watch (even if I don't want to use that word)

    It's in german, sadly.
    But the pictures and videos might be interesting for some anyway. Like this older video for example that explains how an ambush was made and how the russian tank convoy tried to defend against it. Then shortly after he explains how 2 MBT from the Ukraine tried to delay the convoy further (like 2 tanks vs a whole convoy).
    The whole convoy stacked up (due to the commander dying) and artillery was used afterwards to further damage the convoy.

    Pretty sure most people have posted small videos about this whole thing. But this has it all basically. Radio, better pictures, videos... basically the whole thing and how everything is and was connected.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNeXbNY3HYQ
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2022-05-06 at 05:15 PM.

  15. #19015
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    I didn't watch the video (sorry) but the term "threatened" seems excessive at first. But, I am happy to hear about any blowback from Putin's flat-out lying about the war, or his military in general, by claiming that everything is going perfectly but Russian "soldiers" are just doing something top-secret and unrelated to the fact that their letters home come without paychecks and are written in different handwriting. Or, have stopped entirely.
    Well there is a threat in there. Not a physical threat, but one of delivering information to european newspapers.

  16. #19016
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    The next question, is what will that do? This is hyperbole to make a point, but let's say that 50 million Russians all decide enough's enough. That's a revolution,
    This is not hyperbole, it literally happened before. Enough people in East Germany had enough and started taking to the streets to protest, even though a lot were detained by the secret police. Also other operations, like proving governmental election fraud. Elections were usually "won" by 99% of a 98% voter turnout. In one district citizens watched all polling stations, counting people going in to vote while urging voters before not to vote at all. Official turnout numbers later were of course way higher than number of people counted going in to vote. After months and months of bigger protests East Germanys government finally gave up. This happened all over the eastern bloc. It can happen again in ruSSia, just a question of how many Russians actually start asking themselves


  17. #19017
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    It might come as a shock to you. But was in Myanmar, Syria, Yemen and Ethiopia, does not worsen the food crisis in African countries as much.

    While Europe is not the center of the world. The world wide impact of Russia invading a country that supplies a great deal of food to low and middle income African and Asian countries is profound.

    There's more to it than "jeez now the west thinks it's aaaalll about them again"
    The justifications of the war, the good one, the bad one, is essentially of minor concern to them, like it is for the many other wars going around.

    When it comes to disruption, obviously the best outcome is no war, the second best being a short one, and the worst outcome if of course a prolonged one, especially given their vulnerability.

    As partially mentioned in Lula's interview, the picture painted in the media is some actors sending billions worth of weapons to one side, inevitably prolonging the conflict, while planning to out-bid unconcerned countries on vital resources and/or restricting their trade, and constantly moralizing them after first sending desperate loving calls to MBS and Maduro.
    "It is every citizen's final duty to go into the tanks, and become one with all the people."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang, "Ethics for Tomorrow"

  18. #19018
    Herald of the Titans Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    The dutch even have 5 of those things? Thats new, thought they had nothing left.
    We have 57 of those, 24 in active service atm, and 5 are going to Ukraine. (per wikipedia)

  19. #19019
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang View Post
    The justifications of the war, the good one, the bad one, is essentially of minor concern to them, like it is for the many other wars going around.

    When it comes to disruption, obviously the best outcome is no war, the second best being a short one, and the worst outcome if of course a prolonged one, especially given their vulnerability.

    As partially mentioned in Lula's interview, the picture painted in the media is some actors sending billions worth of weapons to one side, inevitably prolonging the conflict, while planning to out-bid unconcerned countries on vital resources and/or restricting their trade, and constantly moralizing them after first sending desperate loving calls to MBS and Maduro.
    The conflict is being “extended” by giving Ukraine arms in that it allows Ukraine to strengthen their position against Russias aggression. Russia could end the war at any time by simply leaving; it is entirely upon them to end the war, not Ukraine.

    Ukraine has decided that fighting for their freedom to have self-determination is superior to a peaceful state of subjugation to Russia.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2022-05-06 at 05:50 PM.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  20. #19020
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Russia has redefined Nazism after Lavrov's outburst. It no longer is anti-semetic - its anti-slavic and anti-russian.
    I don't know whats actually worse. This Russian propaganda crap on national TV or the people in Russia who belive it (and alot of them do).

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