1. #19081
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Nah. You're still confusing the idea of "surrendering Donbas" with "surrendering". Despite the fact that they use the same word, those two statements are not the same because context continues to have meaning.
    [...]
    So there's a lot of room for "making concessions" to not be the same thing as "surrendering".

    I really don't know why you're choosing this hill to die on.
    Or maybe I recognize the word has a much broader meaning than how some groups might use it legalistically, and that trying to enforce that overly-limited standard is a bad-faith attempt to dismiss opinions you don't like without having to address the meat of what they're actually getting at.

    Plus:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_(military)
    "Surrender, in military terms, is the relinquishment of control over territory, combatants, fortifications, ships or armament to another power."

    If you really want to draw on legal definitions, it's super not gonna help you; https://legal-dictionary.thefreedict....com/surrender

    And if you're actually trying to argue that you're citing some internationally-defined term which stipulates a removal of armament from one side, you're not gonna find any such source, because that definition you're claiming does not exist. I went looking through UN treaty documents to make sure I wasn't overlooking something obvious, and couldn't find any such thing. And no, a side comment by the American Bar Association doesn't provide any such conclusive interpretation.

    So even if I granted you were right on what you think it means, I'd still think you're using it improperly. But in truth, I don't even agree that you are right about what you think it means, in the first place. You don't have a proper source to cite for that. Armed surrenders are a thing that have happened in history.
    Last edited by Endus; 2022-05-03 at 12:20 AM.


  2. #19082
    Quote Originally Posted by Afrospinach View Post
    All this.
    Also...After all the evidence of mass rapes, mass murder, mass looting, now effectively confirmed beyond any reasonable doubt by international observes and UN war crimes investigators, someone with a shred of decency and empathy for the victims would at least chime in and say something like -Fuck I was wrong, these people are actually horrible and I condemn this shit wholeheartedly.

    But that's just me I guess.

  3. #19083
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    I edited my post before I saw this, but the point stands, at the time easo was posting, russia was demanding ukraine be demilitarized. It would have required surrender. So again, yes, they're the same thing.
    No... they're not. Because Easo never said that Ukraine should accept demilitarization. He said that that Ukraine should make concessions for peace. Russia would obviously have to make concessions on their demand for demilitarization in order for this to happen. Because, you know, that's the nature of a peace treaty.

    You're turning yourself into a pretzel trying to make your position work, and it just doesn't.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    *disingenuous drivel*
    Learn the difference between a transitive verb and an intransitive verb.

    "Surrender" has multiple meanings. Saying "to surrender Donbas" is not the same thing as "to surrender".

    In the context in which it was used, without a direct object, the intransitive verb meaning applies.

    But... I bet you already know this, yet just choose to ignore it.

    So... toodles.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  4. #19084
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    No... they're not. Because Easo never said that Ukraine should accept demilitarization. He said that that Ukraine should make concessions for peace. Russia would obviously have to make concessions on their demand for demilitarization in order for this to happen. Because, you know, that's the nature of a peace treaty.

    You're turning yourself into a pretzel trying to make your position work, and it just doesn't.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Learn the difference between a transitive verb and an intransitive verb.

    "Surrender" has multiple meanings. Saying "to surrender Donbas" is not the same thing as "to surrender".

    In the context in which it was used, without a direct object, the intransitive verb meaning applies.

    But... I bet you already know this, yet just choose to ignore it.

    So... toodles.
    Surrendering Donbas necessitates surrender. Idk what distinction you’re attempting to make, but if they surrender Donbas Ukraine is surrendering. Period. It’s not a complete surrender, but it is most assuredly surrendering. Toodles.

    Edit: adding the subject doesn’t negate the verb’s meaning. It just clarifies the scope.
    Last edited by Vegas82; 2022-05-03 at 12:45 AM.

  5. #19085
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Surrendering Donbas necessitates surrender. Idk what distinction you’re attempting to make, but if they surrender Donbas Ukraine is surrendering. Period.
    No, it's literally not. Lulz.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  6. #19086
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    No, it's literally not. Lulz.
    Yes, it literally is. It’s right there in the phrase. “Surrender Donbas.” You do understand how words work right?

  7. #19087
    Have not seen it mentioned, but here is the daily something is on fire/exploded in Russia.
    Massive explosion moments ago at the Perm gunpowder plant in Russia, which produces components for Grad and Smerch missiles as well as air defense systems.
    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/statu...32312821383168

  8. #19088
    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
    Have not seen it mentioned, but here is the daily something is on fire/exploded in Russia.
    Massive explosion moments ago at the Perm gunpowder plant in Russia, which produces components for Grad and Smerch missiles as well as air defense systems.
    https://twitter.com/visegrad24/statu...32312821383168
    I feel bad for anyone who is being caught in these fires, horrible way to go.

  9. #19089
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Yes, it literally is. It’s right there in the phrase. “Surrender Donbas.”
    You, also, apparently need to learn the difference between a transitive verb and an intransitive verb, and how the same word can have different meanings depending on how it's used.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    You do understand how words work right?
    Yes, actually, quite well. You, however, apparently do not.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  10. #19090
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Learn the difference between a transitive verb and an intransitive verb.

    "Surrender" has multiple meanings. Saying "to surrender Donbas" is not the same thing as "to surrender".

    In the context in which it was used, without a direct object, the intransitive verb meaning applies.

    But... I bet you already know this, yet just choose to ignore it.

    So... toodles.
    Calling me "disingenuous", when you're the one inventing a non-definition out of half-truths and misrepresentations.

    You're not using "surrender" appropriately. It literally does not mean what you're claiming, and you haven't a single source that supports you on this. Surrendering Donbas would be a surrender. I don't know what pit of doublespeak you fell down that led you to think describing the territory being surrendered made it not-a-surrender. Surrendering Donbas would be to surrender. This isn't a case of "surrender" being a transitive verb or not; "surrender" is clearly both, but neither use supports your interpretation of what it means.

    Adding an object in this case just specifies what is being surrendered, where without such an object, it could mean a surrender without conditions or restrictions. Or it might not. Plenty of actual, historical military surrenders were not unconditional, and some allowed the one surrendering to keep their arms. You have literally no basis for what you're claiming on this, and you're pulling this "disingenuous" accusation out your ass to try and cover for that lack of support.

    Edit: Hell, if you're gonna nitpick grammar, let's have at it;

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/surrender

    "Definition of surrender (Entry 1 of 2)
    transitive verb

    1a: to yield to the power, control, or possession of another upon compulsion or demand
    b: to give up completely or agree to forgo especially in favor of another
    2a: to give (oneself) up into the power of another especially as a prisoner
    b: to give (oneself) over to something (such as an influence)

    intransitive verb
    : to give oneself up into the power of another : YIELD"

    Not really that meaningful a difference in interpretation, whether transitive or intransitive in use.

    Or pick whatever other dictionary you like. I repeat; you do not have any source you can cite that supports your use of the word.
    Last edited by Endus; 2022-05-03 at 01:21 AM.


  11. #19091
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    There's something more to this, to be certain. That's far too many fires in at least moderately strategic complexes to just be a series of accidents.

    I doubt it's a bunch of ninja-esque American black ops teams or whatever, but sabotage feels possible, but even then this coordinated? I dunno. But it's off. Maybe a bunch of insurance scams write large, who knows with how corrupt Russian society is at this point.
    There are special forces groups comprised of citizens from all over the world in Russia. They are being taken out from the inside.
    Super Mario Maker 2: Maker ID 8B7-CTF-NMG

    - The subscription for WoW will be added to Gamepass Ultimate at no additional cost, mark my words.

  12. #19092
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It literally does not mean what you're claiming, and you haven't a single source that supports you on this.
    Maybe I was wrong and the problem is really that you're just clueless about the English language and its grammar.


    Merriam-Webster:




    Dictionary.com:




    Oxford:



    There is only one definition for the intransitive use of "surrender". And it's not the same as the the way in which you're using the transitive version.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  13. #19093
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    You, also, apparently need to learn the difference between a transitive verb and an intransitive verb, and how the same word can have different meanings depending on how it's used.



    Yes, actually, quite well. You, however, apparently do not.
    You don’t know what surrender means. Got it. I was raised by an English professor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Maybe I was wrong and the problem is really that you're just clueless about the English language and its grammar.


    Merriam-Webster:




    Dictionary.com:




    Oxford:



    There is only one definition for the intransitive use of "surrender". And it's not the same as the the way in which you're using the transitive version.
    All of those say Ukraine would be surrendering if they surrender Donbas. It’s kinda necessary for the surrender part considering they currently control Donbas.

  14. #19094
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Maybe I was wrong and the problem is really that you're just clueless about the English language and its grammar.


    There is only one definition for the intransitive use of "surrender". And it's not the same as the the way in which you're using the transitive version.
    Literally all of those agree with me and contradict your use of the word. You're shitting me, right?


  15. #19095
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Literally all of those agree with me and contradict your use of the word. You're shitting me, right?
    I really dunno how we got here…

  16. #19096
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    I really dunno how we got here…
    The defense of the honor of some guy who doesn't even post in this thread anymore, every time he's brought up

  17. #19097
    Please excuse for dragging this out again as I really don't appreciate the gaslighting but here is the quote that drove me up the wall:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I don't want shit. Thankfully it's not my war to wage because I got outta there 20 years ago.

    I just find this cynical view of cheerfully goading people to die to satisfy your "fighting to the bitter end" fetish to be... let's say disturbing. It's not a movie there, real people really really dying.

    That's why yes - the only real way out with the least casualties IS seize fire and IS very unfortunately having to satisfy some of Russia's ambitions there, because again - right now they have the biggest stick in this whole thing.

    You want to fight Russia to the bitter end? Be my guest, just don't casually expect others to do this for you.
    A reply to a more reasonable PC2 post, no less.

    Ukrainians are a sovereign nation who had already made their decision and in light of further events, thank god. Yes this is the "surrender" post because how else are we supposed to take it? along with the attempted shaming of supporting the Ukrainian defense. All class man. Probably better to just stay quiet.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

  18. #19098
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Not really that meaningful a difference in interpretation, whether transitive or intransitive in use.

    Or pick whatever other dictionary you like. I repeat; you do not have any source you can cite that supports your use of the word.
    Massive lulz.

    When used without an object, there is only one meaning for the verb "surrender", and it doesn't include the meaning in which you "relinquish" some territory.

    So "Ukraine surrendered Donbas" is fundamentally different in meaning from "Ukraine surrendered".


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  19. #19099
    Elemental Lord Santti's Avatar
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    Well, this thread certainly took a turn for the mundane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  20. #19100
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    I was raised by an English professor.
    Then they quite probably would be ashamed of your ignorance in this matter, as you have little excuse.


    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Literally all of those agree with me and contradict your use of the word. You're shitting me, right?
    Literally none of it agrees with you, for the reasons I've stated. You're apparently shitting yourself.

    ...oh, that came out wrong.

    ...double phrasing!


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

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