1. #19761
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    I don't see how you can say "they held it since 2014, surely they will hold it now" with a strait face.
    Good thing I didn't, then?

    But the reality is that they have held it. So they're the ones more familiar with the territory than the Ukrainian military at this point. They've got established supply routes there. Entrenched defenses.

    And if/when the rest of the invasion falters, Russian forces will pull back from their current large front towards DPR and LPR, rather than risk being largely cut off from support. Let's not pretend that retaking DPR and LPR is going to be anywhere near the same as retaking small bits of the front. Remember that most of the territory Ukraine has retaken so far has been in areas from where Russia has just withdrawn rather than continue fighting.

    I mean, sure, that's going to happen when Russian forces are sustaining heavy losses; they'll withdraw. But they're going to withdraw towards DPR and LPR, ultimately.

    But more importantly than any of that, I never said "surely they will hold it now". I said it wasn't unreasonable for someone to think that they could continue to hold it. Just because it's not unreasonable to think that doesn't mean they won't be proven wrong in the end.

    Personally, though, I'd estimate less than a 50% chance that Ukraine will get back DPR and LPR through fighting. Maybe up to 66% that they'll get it back through diplomacy after the fighting has ended.


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    and genius is that genius has its limits."

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  2. #19762
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Russans are stealing guns from each other now.
    Wow. Holy shit, that kind of issue in a unit gets people killed.

    Also, Biden has removed Trump's tariff on Ukrainian steel.

  3. #19763
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    And if/when the rest of the invasion falters, Russian forces will pull back from their current large front towards DPR and LPR, rather than risk being largely cut off from support. Let's not pretend that retaking DPR and LPR is going to be anywhere near the same as retaking small bits of the front. Remember that most of the territory Ukraine has retaken so far has been in areas from where Russia has just withdrawn rather than continue fighting.

    I mean, sure, that's going to happen when Russian forces are sustaining heavy losses; they'll withdraw. But they're going to withdraw towards DPR and LPR, ultimately.
    This is the main point that eludes people here. Ukraine simply can't take back DNR/LNR/Crimea by fighting, short of complete collapse and regime change in Russia. What will happen will be that both sides will fight down to stalemate and that's about it for the time being anyway.

    Said collapse won't be happening this year, because the conditions are not there - it will be a process that will take years, the same it was with Soviet Union. Luckily for Ukraine - Russia is no Soviet Union, it won't hold out for a decade. It would still hold out for years.

    That is why Zelensky wants Feb 24th state as a win condition, because for Ukraine it would be a fantastic option for the next few years while Russia deteriorates. This is something Ukraine may be able to approximately get with negotiations.

    Then, eventually, more could be taken back.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  4. #19764
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    This is the main point that eludes people here. Ukraine simply can't take back DNR/LNR/Crimea by fighting, short of complete collapse and regime change in Russia.
    Well, see, now... I don't think that "[they] simply can't take [it] back" is any more correct than "surely they will hold it". I think that some kind of stalemate is by far the most likely outcome, but I don't think it's 100% on either side.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  5. #19765
    Quote Originally Posted by PhaelixWW View Post
    Well, see, now... I don't think that "[they] simply can't take [it] back" is any more correct than "surely they will hold it". I think that some kind of stalemate is by far the most likely outcome, but I don't think it's 100% on either side.
    Gaidax is having an identity crisis since he sees the tactics that Russia uses on a daily basis in Israel and how they can subjugate a region and its people. He’s angy because it’s being used against people like him, but he still has trouble processing the situation due to that fact.

  6. #19766
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post

    Then, eventually, more could be taken back.
    The Russians aren't giving up Kherson. Nor are they giving up the land bridge to Crimea.

    On the other hand they will likely pull back from around Kharkiv. They aren't taking that and I think they pretty much stopped trying.

    A return to the Feb lines would mean they would have next to nothing to show at home for this whole thing.

    Kherson and the land bridge are pretty much their only big wins in this entire fucking fiasco.

  7. #19767
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Putin Delivers Defiant Speech, but Stops Short of Escalation

    Well, I guess we know what V stands for in V-day.

    President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia on Monday hailed his country’s army for “fighting for the Motherland,” delivering a defiant speech at the annual Victory Day commemorations in Moscow that falsely depicted his invasion of Ukraine as an extension of the struggle against Nazism in Europe.

    But despite the rhetorical bombast and military pageantry of the day, which celebrates the Soviet defeat of Nazi Germany, Mr. Putin’s speech was--
    Vagina. It stands for vagina. Putin is a giant pussy.

    Mr. Putin’s speech was conspicuous for what it left out: There was no claim of victory; no call for a new mobilization of Russians for a wider conflict; no threat of a nuclear strike; and no stark pronouncement about Russia being locked in an existential war with the West.

    The address was carefully calibrated and appeared aimed at a domestic audience, as Mr. Putin sought to channel Russian pride in defeating Nazi Germany into support for his invasion of Ukraine. But while some Western officials had predicted Mr. Putin would seize on the holiday to double down on the war, instead his words appeared to underline his cautiousness about demanding too much from regular Russians in a country buffeted by internal divisions.

    He insisted again that Russia had been forced into the war and made a rare acknowledgment of the toll of the fighting, promising that his government would do “everything to care for” the families of dead soldiers.

    President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine rebutted Mr. Putin’s reading of history, saying in a speech released on Monday that the Russian leader’s war was “repeating the horrific crimes of Hitler’s regime today.” He said only “a madman” would follow the path of the fascists who started World War II.
    Um...that bolded...he does realize he started this, right? The madman, in this scenario, is Putin. By Putin's admission. Does he have brain cancer, too?

    I do appreciate that Putin says he's doing everything he can for the families of the dead soldiers. Oh, wait, not "appreciate" what's the word...oh, right, disbelieve. I think he's lying. Russia is listen dead soldiers as "missing" so they don't have to pay anyone. As a reminder, Russia promised 5 million rubles to the families of dead soldiers. Yeah, yeah, I know, that's about $16.50 US but it's worth something to Russians because Putin took away all their dollars and euros, and let's face it, you have to wipe your ass sometime. But that was back when Russia admitted only 500 dead. That number is now likely in the tens of thousands, or to quote a Russian soldier whose call was intercepted:

    The official tally is one thing, but I’ll tell you now – 25,900 have died. That’s in two fucking months.
    Ukraine's estimate is lower than that, by the way.

    I'll be honest, I looked for an admitted Russian public source death count and did not find anything recent. Their last official tally was about 1400 but that was late March. It's early May. Ukraine is at least using a tracking app with facial recognition, and quite frankly, if Ukraine and Russia disagree I'm going to side with Ukraine literally every time. Also, western intel backs up Ukraine more than Russia every single time so there will be no handwaving the 25,000 killed when everyone agrees on it.

    Anyhow: the gap between the 25,900 the Russian soldier said and the 1,351 that Russia has said, Putin owes hundreds of billions of rubles to his people. I will claim without evidence that has not been paid, and when I say "without evidence" I mean "I looked but could not find proof that these families have been paid". Since Putin's announcement March 3 there's been basically no follow-up.

  8. #19768
    Brewmaster Iphie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Um...that bolded...he does realize he started this, right? The madman, in this scenario, is Putin. By Putin's admission. Does he have brain cancer, too?
    Who? Putin? It is alleged that this is one of the five cancers he has, yes. No confirmation of course. The others are, bowel, pancreas, thyroid and spinal column.

    While I admit that I hadn't expected this I am somewhat relieved that there's no apparent escalation, for now.

  9. #19769
    26k dead (so not including injured/captured, which is usually at a minimum double KIA number) is bonkers. It's been 2 months and they've spent half of that not on a major offensive. Really we could include most of the war lest we ignore their very vocal announcement of the commencement of the Donbas offensive a month ago.

    I'm shocked Putin didn't at least declare mobilization in the Ukrainian adjacent territories, those at least can mobilize without having thousands of young, armed soldiers in Moscow who are aware of the fact if the status quo does not change right fucking now they will be sent to die in Ukraine. Every day he delays this is another day Ukraine has to train up their reserves/fresh recruits, to integrate Western weapons, for the West to scale up peace time production into Lend/Lease production, etc. Time is not on Putin's side here.

  10. #19770
    Over 9000! PhaelixWW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finlandia WOAT View Post
    I'm shocked Putin didn't at least declare mobilization in the Ukrainian adjacent territories, those at least can mobilize without having thousands of young, armed soldiers in Moscow who are aware of the fact if the status quo does not change right fucking now they will be sent to die in Ukraine. Every day he delays this is another day Ukraine has to train up their reserves/fresh recruits, to integrate Western weapons, for the West to scale up peace time production into Lend/Lease production, etc. Time is not on Putin's side here.
    Just because he didn't want to do it to coincide with the May 9th celebrations doesn't mean it's not still imminent.


    "The difference between stupidity
    and genius is that genius has its limits."

    --Alexandre Dumas-fils

  11. #19771
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Um...that bolded...he does realize he started this, right? The madman, in this scenario, is Putin. By Putin's admission. Does he have brain cancer, too?
    I think that's what Zelensky said about Putin, if I'm reading the quote right.

  12. #19772
    Quote Originally Posted by Finlandia WOAT View Post
    I'm shocked Putin didn't at least declare mobilization in the Ukrainian adjacent territories.
    To send unwilling conscript on mass to Ukraine is doomed to fail. Putin will get all the Russian mothers who have children in conscript age against him. He cant intimidate/controll them, becuse they "fight" for there childrens life.

  13. #19773
    Legendary! Poopymonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantomen View Post
    To send unwilling conscript on mass to Ukraine is doomed to fail. Putin will get all the Russian mothers who have children in conscript age against him. He cant intimidate/controll them, becuse they "fight" for there childrens life.
    Vlad fears the Babushka Brigades.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Quit using other posters as levels of crazy. That is not ok

  14. #19774
    Two Neptune Missiles Should Not Have Been Able to Sink The Moskva

    Moskva, at 600 feet long, was not a small ship. She was also not defenseless, with radar, SA-N-4 low-altitude surface-to-air missiles, and radar-directed AK-630 30-millimeter Gatling guns that should have offered a considerable amount of protection. That the ship intentionally sailed within range of the shore-based Neptune missiles suggests the Russian Navy thought it could defend itself.

    A warship the size of Moskva should have shot down both Neptune missiles—this actually happened in 2016, when the guided-missile destroyer USS Mason shot down two ASCMs launched by Yemeni Houthi rebels. Moskva should have required more than two Neptune-type missiles to sink; in 1987, an Iraqi Exocet anti-ship missile, similar to Neptune, hit the frigate USS Stark and was saved by its crew. At just 4,000 tons, Stark was a third of the size of Moskva. There are numerous examples such as these that suggest Moskva should still be afloat, or at least have made it to Sevastopol.


    What went wrong? The Russians are not talking.

  15. #19775
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Two Neptune Missiles Should Not Have Been Able to Sink The Moskva



    What went wrong? The Russians are not talking.
    Some things to note: The Moskva was built in Ukraine, they have the unfinished sister ship, it was refurbished in Ukraine as well so they knew her weaknesses. The Ukrainians allegedly distracted the ship until it was too late. If the ordnance on board went up and caused a chain reaction then that would have been bad™.

  16. #19776
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Two Neptune Missiles Should Not Have Been Able to Sink The Moskva



    What went wrong? The Russians are not talking.
    Incompetence
    Ukraine’s government has officially registered the Moskva cruiser wreck on the Black Sea bottom as a national underwater cultural heritage site.

  17. #19777
    Elemental Lord zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Two Neptune Missiles Should Not Have Been Able to Sink The Moskva



    What went wrong? The Russians are not talking.
    In the end, whether the public knows the truth about how it happened doesn't matter nearly as much as that it did.

    Russia is in no position to reinforce their black sea fleet with Turkey blocking the Bosphorus, much less replace major vessels ending up as wrecks in any relevant time frame.
    Last edited by zealo; 2022-05-09 at 10:26 PM.

  18. #19778
    Biden has signed the new lend-lease act into being.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-...ost_type=share

  19. #19779
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Biden has signed the new lend-lease act into being.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-...ost_type=share
    Edi: original comment deleted, was drunk as fuck and mixed up lend-lease with the marshall plan somehow.
    Last edited by Bakis; 2022-05-10 at 08:03 AM.
    Ukraine’s government has officially registered the Moskva cruiser wreck on the Black Sea bottom as a national underwater cultural heritage site.

  20. #19780
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Two Neptune Missiles Should Not Have Been Able to Sink The Moskva



    What went wrong? The Russians are not talking.
    There are various factors. The interception is reliant on the notion that the Russians actually detected the missiles and have done so in time.

    Here's a navy guy/specialist in surface warfare explains why he thinks the Russians likely never detected the missiles or didn't detect them on time.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaiV...ersPuckNielsen

    Second, we don't actually know how many missiles the Ukrainians launched nor how many hit, could have been one or both. Where it hits is also a crapshoot. There are countless stories of naval vessels in WW2 getting bombed into hell and back until they were basically floating swiss cheese and still staying afloat and stories of ships that got hit by 1 lucky bomb/torpedo and exploded catastrophically. Warships are loaded with fuel and munitions. Especially the Slava class had it's whole upper deck covered with missile tubes.

    Third, there are other questions about the overall maintenance state of the whole ship. Were all the damage control systems in working order? Was the crew actually at battle stations or at least in combat alert? Based on pre-sinking observations on the state of the ship, all that is quite questionable.

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