Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Shalcker]

Deleting posts isn't gonna protect you though, someone in this very thread got banned for posts that were edited or deleted. According to moderator words back then, you are still responsible for things you post - even if you modify or hide them.

Deleting is about avoiding provoking others into responding to something that already didn't lead anywhere.

I would honestly say you would get better responses if you would admit being wrong, or otherwise explain things in a post instead of deleting posts that makes you definitely look like someone posting a lot and seeing what sticks. Or gets you banned.

Can you follow your own advice?

I already shown to you why you were wrong; you simply try to deflect by source rather then accept that yes, sometimes Ukrainians do die due to Ukrainians shooting them.

Are you incapable of seeing shades of grey? Ukrainians have to be pure-white and Russians pure-black, otherwise your whole worldview crumbles?

Or maybe it's tribalism? You cannot be seen "agreeing with Russian shill" no matter how well-reasoned?

[Saradain]

Deleting is about avoiding provoking others into responding to something that already didn't lead anywhere.

Can you follow your own advice?

I already shown to you why you were wrong; you simply try to deflect by source rather then accept that yes, sometimes Ukrainians do die due to Ukrainians shooting them.

Are you incapable of seeing shades of grey? Ukrainians have to be pure-white and Russians pure-black, otherwise your whole worldview crumbles?

Last time I checked, you showed me pro-russian sources of bloggers. And pictures with no connection or context. You claiming ukrainians are actively killing their own during a genocidal war by your country...is a big take.

I indeed can see shades of grey, like the ukrainian but pro-russian blogger you consider "proof" of anything. You dodge many things, you misquote or partially quote the best parts you can give a generic reply to. It's all here plain to see for all.

You can keep posting (and get eventually permabanned) propaganda all you like, no one here is fooled, and nothing you say will change the course of war, which is Russia being pummeled to oblivion economically and internally as you send your men to die for false causes with false pretenses. Your people murder and rape civilians (fact, hello Bucha) and you will continue ignoring the said matter to divert the discussion at hand.

You do you, in the end it's YOU who gets banned all the time, and I don't...Wonder why, if I am the one in the wrong here?

Or maybe it's tribalism? You cannot be seen "agreeing with Russian shill" no matter how well-reasoned?

You...are not well-reasoned. At all. Ask almost literally anyone here. I cannot agree or be friendly to someone who defends the genocide and wiping out of entire Ukraine along with its culture and people. While trying to spin the whole thing as something "West started".

[Azadina]

Or maybe it's tribalism? You cannot be seen "agreeing with Russian shill" no matter how well-reasoned?

Maybe it's because you haven't well reasoned the torture, rape and executions of women and CHILDREN. Or men with hands tied. Why don't you well reason it first?

[Shalcker]

Last time I checked, you showed me pro-russian sources of bloggers.

He is claimed to be "pro-Russian" because he has oppositional Ukrainian party named after him. With actual local deputies. Which were helping Ukrainian people all through the war - and still do.

He had lots of criticism to both previous and current administration (even Yanukovich - he fled to EU to avoid persecution and was given asylum) and aimed to change Ukraine through slowly growing his party by elections.

Hell, when war started he even asked "Let's drop all previous grievances and work together to help Ukrainians" on his streams... and then Ukrainian government banned his channel in Ukraine - while all he was doing is warning people about strikes and given them channel to ask for evacuation, food, and medicine to be delivered by his volunteers.

And then Zelensky banned his party too.

And pictures with no connection or context. You claiming ukrainians are actively killing their own during a genocidal war by your country...is a big take.

Ukrainians mistake other Ukrainians for saboteurs due to being frightened and shoot to kill - killing family in the process with just two kids surviving. That particular post was manned by "territorial defense" group - basically civilians with guns.

Is that "actively"? It's not like they shot every car that drove past them... that particular one just somehow looked suspicious to them. Maybe they asked them to stop and they didn't. Maybe there was some kind of "Russians are driving black SUVs" rumor - there were lots of wild stories in early days of war.

Can you accept that it could happen?

[Saradain]

He is claimed to be "pro-Russian" because he has oppositional Ukrainian party named after him. With actual local deputies. Which were helping Ukrainian people all through the war - and still do.

He had lots of criticism to both previous and current administration (even Yanukovich - he fled to EU to avoid persecution and was given asylum) and aimed to change Ukraine through slowly growing his party by elections.

Hell, when war started he even asked "Let's drop all previous grievances and work together to help Ukrainians" on his streams... and then Ukrainian government banned his channel in Ukraine - while all he was doing is warning people about strikes and given them channel to ask for evacuation, food, and medicine to be delivered by his volunteers.

And then Zelensky banned his party too.

Ukrainians mistake other Ukrainians for saboteurs due to being frightened and shoot to kill - killing family in the process with just two kids surviving. That particular post was manned by "territorial defense" group - basically civilians with guns.

Is that "actively"? It's not like they shot every car that drove past them... that particular one just somehow looked suspicious to them. Maybe they asked them to stop and they didn't.

Can you accept that it could happen?

This I can accept as a possibility - but can you provide actual news outlet (not affiliated with Kremlin) as a source? All the links I've given have been about russian saboteurs shooting ukrainian civilians in their cars because...dunno, they were free targets with no consequences from russian "court of justice" due special military operation that officially doesn't target civilians (while they actually are the main target)?

More importantly, can you accept that russian army is committing genocide on civilians, like in Bucha as that has been proved by international agencies?

[Crispin]

This I can accept as a possibility - but can you provide actual news outlet (not affiliated with Kremlin) as a source? All the links I've given have been about russian saboteurs shooting ukrainian civilians in their cars because...dunno, they were free targets with no consequences from russian "court of justice" due special military operation that officially doesn't target civilians (while they actually are the main target)?

More importantly, can you accept that russian army is committing genocide on civilians, like in Bucha as that has been proved by international agencies?

Shalcker does not post in good faith. Don’t expect any serious debate with him.

He’ll gladly accept crap photoshopped proof from Russia, but deny any actual proof if it goes against Russia. Then it’s actors, or ukranians killing ukranians to make Russia look bad. You know just like Russians killed millions of Russians during ww2, to make the Germans look bad

[Cynep]

Yes, war is also consequence of comic-book level of political thinking, with heroes and villains in place of strategic interests and imperial power struggles.

In response to the highlighted, here's a thought for you: USSR was an empire, RF is not really. The sooner Russians understand where their place is, and start trying to compete with Canada instead of USA, the better for Russians and for everyone else.

- - - Updated - - -

But that's the whole point - ceasefire, even a temporary one would work in Ukraine's favor because time is against Russia, even if they may attempt to take that time to regroup. Of course Ukraine will use term "temporarily occupied" for Crimea and DNR/LNR area that is guaranteed to stay in Russian hands for the time being during that ceasefire.

After all some areas are way too solidly in Russian hands, the most obvious being Crimea that really is not going anywhere for years to come. That's why I keep saying there will be a ceasefire with Crimea in Russian hands and I also say that it is almost certainty same will be for previously occupied areas of Donetsk/Lugansk. So yes - making a ceasefire agreement with those as they are is not ultimately "surrender", it's simply a necessary temporary measure for Ukraine, because they can't really take those back by force right now.

And very obviously that such a ceasefire won't mean sanctions off for Russia, for that actual peace agreement will need to happen and that's where Ukraine will have to talk business about whatever is left occupied.

Well, we agree on important points then, even if we disagreed a bit on terminology. Glad to clear that.

- - - Updated - - -

Almost eerie to think about that Finland wouldn't even need to join NATO at this point, russian army is beyond salvaging so just beating the shit out of your merry band of bandits, rapists, murderers, thieves would be easy peasy. But in the other hand, to ensure not a single actual human (and not orc) person would ever have to experience what your Isengard army is doing...

To be fair, it's a pattern - incompetence of Russian army was exposed in Crimean War in 1850s, then in Russo-Japanese war in 1900s, then in Winter War in 1940, and now in Ukrainian War. Each time some reform happened after the war, so it's better to not get too careless while Russia is still a wannabe empire.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Are you incapable of seeing shades of grey? Ukrainians have to be pure-white and Russians pure-black, otherwise your whole worldview crumbles?

Or maybe it's tribalism? You cannot be seen "agreeing with Russian shill" no matter how well-reasoned?

Descending into satire now, I see? Or are you so incapable of self-reflection that you can't see that this is 100% pure weapon grade projection on your part.

You've been back 10 minutes and you've already ramped back up to the same levels of bullshit and misdirection you were spewing out before your last ban. I don't know what you're trying to achieve, but I can tell you that you aren't going to last very long trying it.

[Shrouded]

In response to the highlighted, here's a thought for you: USSR was an empire, RF is not really. The sooner Russians understand where their place is, and start trying to compete with Canada instead of USA, the better for Russians and for everyone else.

Or even better, coexist and cooperate with the rest of the world. But that is equally unlikely, the inferiority complex and dreams of the "glory days" that never really existed are too strong.

Sad to see this thread become unusable once more. Maybe a containment thread for the containment thread would be a good idea at this point.

[Shalcker]

This I can accept as a possibility - but can you provide actual news outlet (not affiliated with Kremlin) as a source?

What does "actual news outlet" means? Sharij isn't "affiliated with a Kremlin", and he runs actual news outlet ( sharij.net )

He also has his own network in Ukraine to get him information and videos; that's how he gotten 2 million+ following on Youtube.

He also has huge beef with DNR/LNR.

All the links I've given have been about russian saboteurs shooting ukrainian civilians in their cars because...dunno, they were free targets with no consequences from russian "court of justice" due special military operation that officially doesn't target civilians (while they actually are the main target)?

"Who should you believe - Westerners repeating Ukrainian claims 'it was Russian saboteurs somehow getting into Kiev and killing civilians while inflicting no damage to infrastructure or military', or your own lying eyes and ears when hot video comes on stream with "they were saboteurs" commentary, gets priority, and then gets investigated in detail"?

Who would go and contradict Ukrainians just for minor episode that paints Ukrainians in bad light? Two options - truth-seekers or "pro-Russians".

More importantly, can you accept that russian army is committing genocide on civilians, like in Bucha as that has been proved by international agencies?

Please link to official communications of respective international agencies.

[Mayhem]

Their energy and military needs add to their need to be free from potential Western blackmail if West decides that what it does with Russia is actually "new normal" rather then exception; and it's not like Russia - unlike West - is going to supply their rebels.

Try that sentence again please, I can't make anything out of it.

[MCMLXXXII]

Try that sentence again please, I can't make anything out of it.

You know west is an entity. You are west, they are west, everybody is west

[Mekh]

In any event, I suppose you can wish for justice.

I wish for you to remove that cunt from the forums then.

[Breccia]

From CNN's tracker (so the link is irrelevant sorry):

The Ukrainian armed forces say the Russians have had "no success" with efforts to break through front lines in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions over the past 24 hours.

In its operational update for Thursday, the General Staff said: "Lyman, Severodonetsk and Popasna areas. The enemy units are trying to conduct offensive operations; no success."

Attacks repelled: All three cities are on the frontlines of a multi-pronged Russian offensive to seize the Donetsk and Luhansk regions. The General Staff said a total of 11 attacks had been repulsed.

Some Russian soldiers had refused to take part in further hostilities, according to the General Staff.

"A number of servicemen of the 38th Separate Motorized Rifle Brigade of the 35th All-Military Army of the Eastern Military District, after being taken to the recovery area, refused to continue participating in hostilities in Ukraine due to significant personnel losses," it said.

CNN is unable to verify such a claim and the General Staff provided no further details.

Emphasis mine.

We're also seeing reports explaining why and how Russia has lost so many tanks: they're not breaking them on purpose. Not necessarily to keep them from falling into Ukraine hands, although I suspect that's part of it. No, we're getting reports of Russian breaking their own tanks, so they don't have to go to the front.

We might also know a new factor leading to low morale. Russia is stealing Ukrainian grain, hundreds of thousands of tons of it. You don't steal grain because you're trying to deNazify. You steal grain because you're starving and broke.

And finally, we have confirmation Russia will declare war on May 9.

"Hey, that article says Russia denies this!"

Like I said, confirmation. Russia has lied about everything else, why would this be different?

[Shalcker]

In response to the highlighted, here's a thought for you: USSR was an empire, RF is not really. The sooner Russians understand where their place is, and start trying to compete with Canada instead of USA, the better for Russians and for everyone else.

*shrug* Plenty of Russians seem to buy into "great destiny" for Russia. We'll see how it will play out, "nuclear backstop" makes it hard for any fall to be terminal.

[Mihalik]

Try that sentence again please, I can't make anything out of it.

The Ukrainians rebels need to be liberated from the West, even if it kills them.

I guess.

[Belize]

You know west is an entity. You are west, they are west, everybody is west

But since the earth is a globe, isn't Russia also west if you go west far enough?

Does that not mean that if the war in Ukraine is the west's fault, it's Russia's fault since they're west?

[Shalcker]

Try that sentence again please, I can't make anything out of it.

"West has nothing (extra) to offer to China/India but threats, unlike Russia".

[Fuiking]

But since the earth is a globe, isn't Russia also west if you go west far enough?

Does that not mean that if the war in Ukraine is the west's fault, it's Russia's fault since they're west?

oke. Be ready to lose vladvistok, and the amur region and kamchatka

[Azadina]

I wish for you to remove that cunt from the forums then.

It'll take more than calling me that.