Russian invasion of Ukraine

[jonnysensible]

this is why all dictators on planet earth should be violently removed.

'let me win or ill nuke you'

[Crispin]

I mean I doubt it is just the west that will ignore them. Do you think China or India would acknowledge annexations through referenda at gunpoint? Or any of Russia's "allies" that share a border?

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China should hold an online referendum on Outer Manchuria

Time for Taiwan to hold an online referendum for independence if China recognises these sham referenda.

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I'm the only one here to give an insight from the Ukrainian view on these referenda. (that guy from Kyiv went to fight, I hope he's fine).

While this attempt to reframe the conflict from a special operation of "denazification" into a defensive war for Russia is indeed escalatory and worrisome, for Ukraine is still means that taking Kherson or Donetsk or Crimea is legal, justified and okay. It also can and will be interpreted that taking a part of what Russia calls Russian territory is legal, justified and okay. Therefore, splitting Russia up into small parts Scroe-style is legal, justified and okay. Sorry Vladier, sorry Iphie and other moderates. If these referenda happen, for Ukrainians it's either they get genocided or Russia becomes permanently weaker than Ukraine. You know how Bismarck's life mission was to make then-hegemonic France weaker than Prussia. Only it's harsher for Ukrainians, France didn't even think about genociding Prussia.

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Eh, it's only partially true. The process you described was successfully done by Poland to Ukraine by early 1600's (and less thoroughly and less successfully to Lithuania later). The result is that Ukraine for centuries has only low-class culture focussed on indestructibility. Upper and middle classes were completely polonized but entire culture wan't destroyed, it changed to permanent guerrilla.

Where do you see this situation 6 months from now?

[Iphie]

I mean I doubt it is just the west that will ignore them. Do you think China or India would acknowledge annexations through referenda at gunpoint? Or any of Russia's "allies" that share a border?

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China should hold an online referendum on Outer Manchuria

China doesn't even recognise Crimea as part of russia, so I really doubt they'll accept this.

[Nymrohd]

China doesn't even recognise Crimea as part of russia, so I really doubt they'll accept this.

I mean it is a disastrous precedent for any sovereign nation to accept. There is a reason self-determination for a people has only been recognized in extreme cases and only with near the entire international community in agreement of those cases.

[Kaleredar]

China doesn't even recognise Crimea as part of russia, so I really doubt they'll accept this.

China seems pretty keen on "supporting Russia in word only." As in, they'll say and do anything to help Russia... that doesn't actually help them fight, because they value their monetary connections to western countries far more than they care about Russian megalomania.

But China saying "Yeah sure, Russia owns Crimea, why not" is basically no skin off their bones, so I wouldn't be too sure about that.

[Cynical Asshole]

China seems pretty keen on "supporting Russia in word only." As in, they'll say and do anything to help Russia... that doesn't actually help them fight, because they value their monetary connections to western countries far more than they care about Russian megalomania.

But China saying "Yeah sure, Russia owns Crimea, why not" is basically no skin off their bones, so I wouldn't be too sure about that.

The ever money greedy China won't do anything that could endanger relations with the West. China really REALLY doesn't want sanctions, especially not over supporting Putin's small peepee operation. Maybe over invading Taiwan, yes, because Taiwan is a huge prize economically speaking, but Ukraine holds 0 value for China.

So yes, other than flying over battlefields with a huge banner saying "Go Russia!", China won't do anything.

[Kaleredar]

The ever money greedy China won't do anything that could endanger relations with the West. China really REALLY doesn't want sanctions, especially not over supporting Putin's small peepee operation.

Yeah, but them simply saying that they think Crimea and any other Ukrainian territories belong to Russia is that exact level of weaseling, center-line they've liked to tow where they 1) condone Russia's actions to give Russia internal propaganda and look like stalwart allies all while 2) not actually committing to doing anything themselves at a level where 3) Western countries still wouldn't be bothered to affect any sanctions against China over a mere statement.

It's like when Russia and China participated in those co-training military exercises. It makes Russia think China is a fastidious ally who's cooperating with them without China aiding Russia's combat efforts in any actual way and was so brief that other countries didn't even debate sanctioning China over it.

[Saradain]

So it begins.

Russian Federation's Final Solution to the Ukrainian Problem.

Good luck Putin, you're gonna need it.

[Lahis]

Usual drivel from Putin. Everything is the West's fault. They made him invade Ukraine. They want to destroy Russia. etc etc and so on.

Well he is starting to be right about the "west wanting to destroy Russia" part.

Self fulfilling prophecy really.

[Voidwielder]

So, so many Russians are going to die as a cannon fodder... I have been this happy for years! God, all those broken families, unborn children and widows!

I'm sorry, I have to go and jerk off.


Infracted.

[Gabriel]

Im almost tempted to lean towards letting him have it for now if it would put the end of the active fighting and work on getting the world back on track again.

Russia will still be a pariah and sanctioned for generations, they will not get stronger. Ukraine can join the EU and nato and work on moving forward.
I imagine there will be an ongoing insurgency in the newly russified region forever as well.

Looks to me like he wants to end this fast. A mobilization to protect his new terrority.

Thank God people like you don't decide how it is handled.

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I'm the only one here to give an insight from the Ukrainian view on these referenda. (that guy from Kyiv went to fight, I hope he's fine).

While this attempt to reframe the conflict from a special operation of "denazification" into a defensive war for Russia is indeed escalatory and worrisome, for Ukraine is still means that taking Kherson or Donetsk or Crimea is legal, justified and okay. It also can and will be interpreted that taking a part of what Russia calls Russian territory is legal, justified and okay. Therefore, splitting Russia up into small parts Scroe-style is legal, justified and okay. Sorry Vladier, sorry Iphie and other moderates. If these referenda happen, for Ukrainians it's either they get genocided or Russia becomes permanently weaker than Ukraine. You know how Bismarck's life mission was to make then-hegemonic France weaker than Prussia. Only it's harsher for Ukrainians, France didn't even think about genociding Prussia.

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Eh, it's only partially true. The process you described was successfully done by Poland to Ukraine by early 1600's (and less thoroughly and less successfully to Lithuania later). The result is that Ukraine for centuries has only low-class culture focussed on indestructibility. Upper and middle classes were completely polonized but entire culture wan't destroyed, it changed to permanent guerrilla.

I've said it before, but I say it again; the only people who should get to decide how to deal with the russian invasion is Ukrainians. Sure I have my own agenda of wanting to see russia disintegrate, but I'll support whatever you guys decide.

[jonnysensible]

wonder how many russians will flee. russian stock market nose diving.

[Corvus]

Whoever wrote the speeches must have been drunk given the many contradictions in it.

We are only after the Donbas but everything we take is also our and that means any attempt to retake it will be a threat to our territorial integrity which means we might use nukes to defend ourselves and this time we really, really mean it but the big bad west is using nuclear blackmail against us when all we want to do is threaten them with nukes if they don't let us win. And on and on.

And Shoigu is just as bizarre. He says they have lost less than 6,000 soldiers while Ukraine has lost 100,000 yet despite such lopsided losses they need to call up 300,000 more soldiers.

[Voidwielder]

wonder how many russians will flee. russian stock market nose diving.

its a passive, demoralized, atomized society

very few will
russians are the perfect slave nation on this planet

[Iphie]

Yeah, but them simply saying that they think Crimea and any other Ukrainian territories belong to Russia is that exact level of weaseling, center-line they've liked to tow where they 1) condone Russia's actions to give Russia internal propaganda and look like stalwart allies all while 2) not actually committing to doing anything themselves at a level where 3) Western countries still wouldn't be bothered to affect any sanctions against China over a mere statement.

It's like when Russia and China participated in those co-training military exercises. It makes Russia think China is a fastidious ally who's cooperating with them without China aiding Russia's combat efforts in any actual way and was so brief that other countries didn't even debate sanctioning China over it.

But that's the thing, they've explicitly said that Crimea is Ukrainian territory.

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-pol...thorities.html

(year-ish old but still)

[Cynical Asshole]

its a passive, demoralized, atomized society

very few will
russians are the perfect slave nation on this planet

Nah, those are the Chinese. Organic robots.

At least Russian regimes change...occasionally.


Infracted.

[Nymrohd]

China seems pretty keen on "supporting Russia in word only." As in, they'll say and do anything to help Russia... that doesn't actually help them fight, because they value their monetary connections to western countries far more than they care about Russian megalomania.

But China saying "Yeah sure, Russia owns Crimea, why not" is basically no skin off their bones, so I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Well they have had 8 years to recognize Russia's claims to Crimea and they haven't so that should tell you something.

[Lahis]

Nah, those are the Chinese. Organic robots.

At least Russian regimes change...occasionally.

Russian regimes change hats and logos occasionally, but the morals and principles stay the same.

[Nymrohd]

Nah, those are the Chinese. Organic robots.

At least Russian regimes change...occasionally.

I would not agree. The Chinese have a very long history and the main theme is that the people usually can do their best to ignore their government while going on with their lives. Oh party members are very nationalistic (at least they have to present so) but your average chinese citizen just wants to live and let live. Meanwhile the Russians are passionate about their autocracy du jour.

The main issue is we have a much better chance of affecting Russian culture because their youth is reasonably connected to western culture while China does a far better job keeping their citizens separate and any Chinese that has a rudimentary grasp of history has every reason to be wary of if not outright hostile to the west.

[Veggie50]

Russian regimes change hats and logos occasionally, but the morals and principles stay the same.

This is an absolute fact.

Right until it’s not.