Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Wilian]

Just realised, those T-55 and T-54 tank designs are older than putin himself. That country is really a joke.

Those are literal WW2 tanks, as in designed during WW2.

[Iphie]

What happens if the Russians lose Bahkmut, though? Remember that although he's evil as fuck, the Wagner leader believably explained the strategic importance of maintaining Bahkmut to the Russians - and how fucked they are if they can't.

1. To lose something you must first have it, this is not the case.
2. Prig has already said if shit goes tits up he'll just leave if he doesn't get support.
3. there are rumours prig is going to focus on Africa in any case due to feeling betrayed.
4. the MoD forces are apparently moving to the Kreminna-Lyman direction.

5. Absolutely unconfirmed and blatantly insane: prig apparently wrote a letter to the US government offering to go focus on something else...for the right price and support.

[jonnysensible]

What happens if the Russians lose Bahkmut, though? Remember that although he's evil as fuck, the Wagner leader believably explained the strategic importance of maintaining Bahkmut to the Russians - and how fucked they are if they can't.

they move back to their next positions, and have a propaganda loss.

Prig is already being told to fuck off and focus on his africa shenanigans (i.e looting african metals for 2 billion a year?)

[YUPPIE]

so do you people really undermine the importance of Bahkmut? I assumed if the Russians lost this one, they would essentially be a decapitated army (i.e total inhouse chaos and defeated, but still existing)

[Gorsameth]

so do you people really undermine the importance of Bahkmut? I assumed if the Russians lost this one, they would essentially be a decapitated army (i.e total inhouse chaos and defeated, but still existing)

Bahkmut is utterly unimportant. It has no strategic value and the only reason its in the news is because its where Wagner decided to have their main thrust and they are the only ones that have made any progress at all by throwing waves of meat at the problem.

Outside of PR the cost of losing Bahkmut is the same as long anywhere else along the front line. It risks a breakthrough and who knows how the Russians will be able to recover from that. If they are organised its fine, if not then the entire front could crumble.

[jonnysensible]

so do you people really undermine the importance of Bahkmut? I assumed if the Russians lost this one, they would essentially be a decapitated army (i.e total inhouse chaos and defeated, but still existing)

bahkmut for the russians means they can threaten Kramatorsk and Sloviansk. Ukraine staying there means they can inflict heavy attrition to Russian forces and protect Kramatorsk and Sloviansk. It really isn't that important in terms of location, but its become a propaganda war.

The Russians have hyped it up and now they have to take or they do look stupid (which is a really bad way to wage a war) and they would have to take it at some point anyway.

The Ukranians don't really want to lose it for propaganda reasons, they can inflict heavy damage to whatever russia chucks in there and they are sort of saying 'we could go back to our next postions, and then if that goes badly go back to our next positions and eventually go back to kyiv...but why bother with going all the way back to kyiv why not make out stand here?'

[Flarelaine]

Beyond the propaganda value, Bakhmut is a railroad junction.

[YUPPIE]

the reason I understandably have skepticism about its supposed iffy importance is that even Ukrainian intel has stated the fighting in Bahkmut is the bloodiest and most awful for a while now, with a ridiculous mortality rate relative to elsewhere.

Why would Ukraine fight so hard for this place? I doubt they've suffered minor losses with all that's been said.

[Calfredd]

the reason I understandably

"Understandably" my butt!

[Gorsameth]

the reason I understandably have skepticism about its supposed iffy importance is that even Ukrainian intel has stated the fighting in Bahkmut is the bloodiest and most awful for a while now, with a ridiculous mortality rate relative to elsewhere.

Why would Ukraine fight so hard for this place? I doubt they've suffered minor losses with all that's been said.

your wondering why the fighting is most intense at the main pressure point of the Russian attack?

If they were not fighting this hard at Bahkmut they would be fighting this hard at whatever other point Russia chooses to attack at. The intensity wouldn't change, just the location.

[Elder Millennial]

Why would Ukraine fight so hard for this place? I doubt they've suffered minor losses with all that's been said.

Because if the Russians want to throw countless lives and endless resources into a completely meaningless objective it's convenient for the Ukrainians to fight there instead of somewhere where there's something worthwhile to lose.

Losing Bakhmut would ultimately not change anything strategically for Ukraine, on the other hand holding Bakhmut would kill countless Russians and humiliate them.

This is not rocket science, this has been repeated over and over and over and over and over again over the last 5 months. Like on what planet were you? The Russians have no greater plan here, no special strategic insight, no hidden card, nothing. They are just doing what they have been doing for the past 13 months, stupid shit.

What western commentators got wrong, again, was believing that the Russians would eventually take Bakhmut, but Ukrainians in a typical Ukrainian fashion seem to have held onto it, despite every expectation. With other words, 5 months of fighting and countless losses later, Russia once again...FAILED.

[Gabriel]

the reason I understandably have skepticism about its supposed iffy importance is that even Ukrainian intel has stated the fighting in Bahkmut is the bloodiest and most awful for a while now, with a ridiculous mortality rate relative to elsewhere.

Why would Ukraine fight so hard for this place? I doubt they've suffered minor losses with all that's been said.

Because that's where they get to kill the most russians and destroy the most russian equipment. D'uh.

[enigma77]

Because that's where they get to kill the most russians and destroy the most russian equipment. D'uh.

an honorable thing in and of itself

[Gabriel]

an honorable thing in and of itself

Let me be clear so nobody gets to bitch at me about this: I meant russian invaders. I'm not advocating for the genocide of all russians.

[Iphie]

Let me be clear so nobody gets to bitch at me about this: I meant russian invaders. I'm not advocating for the genocide of all russians.

Going soft in your old day? (DW I know you never advocated it, but I know of a fair few Finns who make no such distinction.)

[Gabriel]

Going soft in your old day? (DW I know you never advocated it, but I know of a fair few Finns who make no such distinction.)

I've been infracted for less.

[Lynarii]

I think most people would agree that any russian currently in Bahkmut is fair game. I suspect an extreme lack of peaceful civilian interaction left in that particular area.

[Kallisto]

So Prigozhin went fully against the Kremlin narrative it seems. Reporting that there's no NATO in Ukraine, no Nazis. Just Ukrainians and volunteers. Also that those in power were deluded if they ever thought NATO wouldn't supply Kyiv with weapons to defend itself.

[Veggie50]

So Prigozhin went fully against the Kremlin narrative it seems. Reporting that there's no NATO in Ukraine, no Nazis. Just Ukrainians and volunteers. Also that those in power were deluded if they ever thought NATO wouldn't supply Kyiv with weapons to defend itself.

I’ve seen this rumor, but haven’t found a primary source. Ya got some of that good stuff?

[Iphie]

I’ve seen this rumor, but haven’t found a primary source. Ya got some of that good stuff?

Let's start with these:

https://www.ukrainianworldcongress.o...is-in-ukraine/

https://www.euronews.com/2023/03/24/...nazi-narrative


(granted these are probably biased but it is out there.)

And this one:

https://twitter.com/TheStudyofWar/st...03504932274181