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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Statistics isn't your strong suite i see. Even if 25M guild did also 10M it doesnt matter at all because it was still a drop in the sea.
    T15 for example, ~366 guilds (25M) managed to clear 13/13H while ~4578 guilds did full clear 10H;
    That is whole magnitude difference. 25M was simply niche.




    No, thats not a feeling, that is a fact. It is based on simple probability. Finding people suitable for mythic raiding is like trying to find X people that match 3-4 certain criteria and getting 10 is already pretty hard. 20 is pretty much impossible. That is like trying to find 20 left handed vegetarians that likes spider man movies in medium sized town.
    It's not because 25 man was niche it's because 10 man was a complete and utter joke

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    That's just absolutely, 100% not true. If you think for about 10 seconds you can come up with a mechanic that is harder in 10 man than 20 or 25 man.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is not a coherent thought.
    You actually can't. The only way to make 10 man harder than 25 is to purposefully undertune the 25 man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    What are you even on about? You do realize that "less mechanics" is complete BS because the amount of people that has to deal with them is halved right? So no, you dont have to deal with less mechanics.



    Yes you can, the fact first X bosses being dead first day is living proof of that. All you need is time and either skill or gear.

    Please, mediocre players can absolutely do raids in 19 people. You clearly haven't done any higher raiding.





    What kind of nonsense is that 10 man is easier but it was harder when it was tuned to be harder. Get off your high horse, this is becoming ridiculous.

    And no, you dont have less mechanics to deal with, the amount of mechanics was the same. Targets were fewer since you had half of the group. Still much more personal resposibility.

    And again, if they were easier why 10M was killed roughly same time as 25M? Hmm?
    Because outside of Paragon 99% of the actual good players were playing 25 man.

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    It's not because 25 man was niche it's because 10 man was a complete and utter joke
    No, because 25 was niche. You should have competed if it was so joke, if you aint top3 back then then don't even say such nonsense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    You actually can't. The only way to make 10 man harder than 25 is to purposefully undertune the 25 man.
    You can, just like it was done in MoP. "Purposefuly undertune 25" lol


    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    Because outside of Paragon 99% of the actual good players were playing 25 man.
    The amount of nonsense ive read here is astonishing. ITT: Bad players thinking they knew raiding scene while in reality they couldn't even sniff the blaze from those top 10M players.
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    No, because 25 was niche. You should have competed if it was so joke, if you aint top3 back then then don't even say such nonsense.




    You can, just like it was done in MoP. "Purposefuly undertune 25" lol




    The amount of nonsense ive read here is astonishing. ITT: Bad players thinking they knew raiding scene while in reality they couldn't even sniff the blaze from those top 10M players.
    I was raiding top 100 while only raiding 4 days a week lol. Get over yourself. You cannot make 10 man harder than 25 if you try to maximize both. Also the final boss of 10 man was one healed because the damage intake was undertones. I did complete it.

  4. #604
    A lot of this thread has to do with the discussion around the variance in difficulty between 10 and 25man difficulties from the time period both versions existed on heroic difficulty. Pull count data has proved more difficult then I would have assumed it to be seeing as it wasn't all that long ago and the internet is usually pretty good at keeping data alive. But I did find a few things that might prove interesting to the topic.

    First: https://www.wowprogress.com/post/127...on_WoWProgress!
    A wow progress post from early mop when they first wanted to implement pull count into boss kills. Its not tracked anymore but this post does list the pull counts of early guild kills on grand empress and will of the emperor.

    Grand Empress -
    25m: average pull count (first 4 kills) 143 pulls
    10m: average pull count (first 3 kills) 133 pulls

    This boss was clearly quite balanced and even favoring 10man being slightly harder but over all close enough to say the difficulty was on par. This type of closeness is what most people wanting 10 man back probably want to see.

    Will of the Emperor -
    25m: Average pull count - 84 pulls
    10m: Average pull count - 49 pulls

    And now we have a problem. This type of fight was more the problem and with scaled mechanics it was normal to see inbalanced fights favoring 10m. Taking nearly DOUBLE the pulls on 25man along with the data that the FIRST 10man kill took only 19 pulls. Sub 20% of the first 25man kill. This sort of thing is VERY bad for world first race type stuff and heavily promotes doing it on 10man vs 25m even if you are just a normal heroic(now mythic) raider.

    Heroic Rag:
    Heroic rag was an amazing boss and I hope most people agree with me on that but once again there was significant disparity in difficulty. Sadly I have less great evidence here BUT I have https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-DREAM-Paragon , claiming about 500 pulls. And from personal exp that seems on point. My main guild(at the time) took over 300 on 25man heroic which was normal being it was weeks after the world first race. But I also raided with a 10m heroic guild that same tier. The players in my 10m were overall a lower caliber. They made lots of easy mistakes and repeat mistakes but 10man heroic raid took that 10man guild only 97 pulls.

    There were MANY balanced fights between 10 and 25m heroic and many fights could be balanced today as well. However, is it fair to claim all of them could be? I would argue no. These kills also point out issues with raid stacking. Looking at the WotE fight paragon killed it with an impressive pull count of 19 and their raid comp only had 5 classes in it! Solid Line, in the 3rd kill on 10man had 8 classes but took over 3 times the pull count! Having the 'right' comp in 10 man clearly has substantial impact.

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    I was raiding top 100 while only raiding 4 days a week lol. Get over yourself. You cannot make 10 man harder than 25 if you try to maximize both. Also the final boss of 10 man was one healed because the damage intake was undertones. I did complete it.
    Another nonsense argument: "you cannot make 10M harder than 25 unless you make it so".
    Amount of mental gymnastics people are going over are insane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post

    And now we have a problem. This type of fight was more the problem and with scaled mechanics it was normal to see inbalanced fights favoring 10m. Taking nearly DOUBLE the pulls on 25man along with the data that the FIRST 10man kill took only 19 pulls. Sub 20% of the first 25man kill. This sort of thing is VERY bad for world first race type stuff and heavily promotes doing it on 10man vs 25m even if you are just a normal heroic(now mythic) raider.
    Glad you noticed, esports over the good of game. Esports over vast majority of people and their bond, esports over fun. Yes, this is why game gone downhill really fast as this mindset is prevailing since WoD in every aspect of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    There were MANY balanced fights between 10 and 25m heroic and many fights could be balanced today as well. However, is it fair to claim all of them could be? I would argue no. These kills also point out issues with raid stacking. Looking at the WotE fight paragon killed it with an impressive pull count of 19 and their raid comp only had 5 classes in it! Solid Line, in the 3rd kill on 10man had 8 classes but took over 3 times the pull count! Having the 'right' comp in 10 man clearly has substantial impact.
    Yes, not all fights could be balanced, does it matter? No.

    Class stacking? Can't prevent that -> Uunat.
    So how about stop forcing people to play all classes, start balancing them and making underused classes more fun and more viable? Because thats how you lessen stacking.
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    10 man raiding is not gonna work. You already have specs nobody wants in a 20 man raid.
    Here is how EVERY 10 man raid would look: The 2 strongest tanks (probably Paladin, Monk or Demonhunter) 1 Holypaladin and the second strongest healing class (probably disc, sometimes shaman or druid, never monk though) and 6 DPS: Mage, Warlock, Hunter, Rogue and then 2 fotm specs (Shadow, Warri, DK, Moonkin).

    If you play a bad or mediocre melee spec you are not gonna raid.

    10 man raiding was completely broken. If your 10 man raid in MoP had no prot pally and disc priest the raids were twice as hard. Horridon without disc was retarded. (inb4 someone tells me how their guild killed Horridon with 2 Resto shamans. Nobody cares about your worldrank 3000 guild, mate!)
    Triple Puncture FTW!!!

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post

    Glad you noticed, esports over the good of game. Esports over vast majority of people and their bond, esports over fun. Yes, this is why game gone downhill really fast as this mindset is prevailing since WoD in every aspect of the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yes, not all fights could be balanced, does it matter? No.

    Class stacking? Can't prevent that -> Uunat.
    So how about stop forcing people to play all classes, start balancing them and making underused classes more fun and more viable? Because thats how you lessen stacking.
    I don't think you con remove competitiveness from difficult challenges. I'd be interested in hearing how you would do this, but from my exp people are naturally competitive with each other and will often try to be the "superior" player.

    I mean it does matter in this discussion though right? The 10 vs 25man discussion how almost always had to do with balance. If they aren't balanced people will usually lean to the easier version if it grants the same reward. So making 10 and 20(25)man versions of mythic doesnt really do much other than splitting the raiding community. Both versions come with their own unique social issues and I don't think either is exclusively better from a social stand point.

    You keep linking uunat like O look 20 man has class stacking too but Method didn't even win the world first race with that comp stacking so clearly it didn't have the impact you imply it did. Pieces did, with only 4 warlocks. The example I posted points to pretty stong evidence to the impact of class stacking in 10man and its impact on progression speeds.

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    A lot of this thread has to do with the discussion around the variance in difficulty between 10 and 25man difficulties from the time period both versions existed on heroic difficulty. Pull count data has proved more difficult then I would have assumed it to be seeing as it wasn't all that long ago and the internet is usually pretty good at keeping data alive. But I did find a few things that might prove interesting to the topic.

    First: https://www.wowprogress.com/post/127...on_WoWProgress!
    A wow progress post from early mop when they first wanted to implement pull count into boss kills. Its not tracked anymore but this post does list the pull counts of early guild kills on grand empress and will of the emperor.

    Grand Empress -
    25m: average pull count (first 4 kills) 143 pulls
    10m: average pull count (first 3 kills) 133 pulls

    This boss was clearly quite balanced and even favoring 10man being slightly harder but over all close enough to say the difficulty was on par. This type of closeness is what most people wanting 10 man back probably want to see.

    Will of the Emperor -
    25m: Average pull count - 84 pulls
    10m: Average pull count - 49 pulls

    And now we have a problem. This type of fight was more the problem and with scaled mechanics it was normal to see inbalanced fights favoring 10m. Taking nearly DOUBLE the pulls on 25man along with the data that the FIRST 10man kill took only 19 pulls. Sub 20% of the first 25man kill. This sort of thing is VERY bad for world first race type stuff and heavily promotes doing it on 10man vs 25m even if you are just a normal heroic(now mythic) raider.

    Heroic Rag:
    Heroic rag was an amazing boss and I hope most people agree with me on that but once again there was significant disparity in difficulty. Sadly I have less great evidence here BUT I have https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-DREAM-Paragon , claiming about 500 pulls. And from personal exp that seems on point. My main guild(at the time) took over 300 on 25man heroic which was normal being it was weeks after the world first race. But I also raided with a 10m heroic guild that same tier. The players in my 10m were overall a lower caliber. They made lots of easy mistakes and repeat mistakes but 10man heroic raid took that 10man guild only 97 pulls.

    There were MANY balanced fights between 10 and 25m heroic and many fights could be balanced today as well. However, is it fair to claim all of them could be? I would argue no. These kills also point out issues with raid stacking. Looking at the WotE fight paragon killed it with an impressive pull count of 19 and their raid comp only had 5 classes in it! Solid Line, in the 3rd kill on 10man had 8 classes but took over 3 times the pull count! Having the 'right' comp in 10 man clearly has substantial impact.
    You make a lot of great points. My preference would be to remove 20 and keep 10 because it’s plainly superior from my perspective mostly because playing with 10 is more fun than playing with 20.

    This would certainly mean more homogenization which I’m fine with. I didn’t mind when I played r druid, r shaman, and h priest and most of the button setup was the same because their spells were so similar in effect. I think they should strive for classes that feel somewhat different to play but mostly bring the same utility and output. I think no class should have unique utility because that’s annoying.

    But wow will never do that. So I’d settle for flex lockouts, cross realm, and cross faction.

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    You make a lot of great points. My preference would be to remove 20 and keep 10 because it’s plainly superior from my perspective mostly because playing with 10 is more fun than playing with 20.

    This would certainly mean more homogenization which I’m fine with. I didn’t mind when I played r druid, r shaman, and h priest and most of the button setup was the same because their spells were so similar in effect. I think they should strive for classes that feel somewhat different to play but mostly bring the same utility and output. I think no class should have unique utility because that’s annoying.

    But wow will never do that. So I’d settle for flex lockouts, cross realm, and cross faction.
    You aren't getting flex raid sizes for mythic not happening and 10 was a joke there were sub 30 pull endbosses in 10 man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Another nonsense argument: "you cannot make 10M harder than 25 unless you make it so".
    Amount of mental gymnastics people are going over are insane.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Glad you noticed, esports over the good of game. Esports over vast majority of people and their bond, esports over fun. Yes, this is why game gone downhill really fast as this mindset is prevailing since WoD in every aspect of the game.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yes, not all fights could be balanced, does it matter? No.

    Class stacking? Can't prevent that -> Uunat.
    So how about stop forcing people to play all classes, start balancing them and making underused classes more fun and more viable? Because thats how you lessen stacking.
    25 man will always have a higher max difficulty than 10 man because there are more points of failure and the sheer amount of space taken up by 25 or 20 man is just so much bigger especially when there are mechanics that force spreading. For example Sylv mythic forces a very specific pattern of spreading that would be an absolute non issue in 10 man.
    Last edited by Xath; 2021-12-19 at 07:35 AM.

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    What is relevant is that (at least for last 2-3 tiers where 25/10 was a thing) last boss died in roughly same time.
    [..]
    Biggest proof is how M+
    You appear to be on quest to disagree just to disagree. It doesn't matter if 10man was harder(theoretically); it was still objectively a deficient gametype because it's a game of 12 classes; 5man is also crap in terms of that: e.g. ALL the latest 5man world records have a frost mage and others get the bench.

    And you insist to not understand the history of the game itself; it was 25man guilds who made the most hard core "10man" raids because they could cherry pick the perfect class setup; the best "10man" players applied to 25man guilds when they changed guild to improve their progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    A fight is always easier on 10 man
    Don't fall into his theoretical trap; theoretically and practically 10man could become harder; e.g. a coder could even say "if 10man: wipe them fast"(as a theoretical extreme example). The actual arguments against 10man have nothing to do with difficulty in isolation to each different raid size: the game has 12 classes so objectively a small gametype will always have a big deficiency at that (including 5man which for example has a frost mage in all the latest world records and others get the bench); additionally: you need a consistent game size in order to balance the game and you avoid the constant flamewar of who had a more prestigious kill.

    And the biggest irony in that off topic sub-discussion about difficulty: it was the 25man guilds who made the best 10mans; they could cherry pick the best classes for 1 10man (just like they cherry pick the best for a 5man now and we get the same frost mage in 1,000 world records in a row); the best "10man" raiders applied to 25man guilds when they jumped ship because they knew that's where the biggest "difficulty" could be tackled (whatever the raid size).
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    I don't think you con remove competitiveness from difficult challenges. I'd be interested in hearing how you would do this, but from my exp people are naturally competitive with each other and will often try to be the "superior" player.
    Having competitive side is ok, designing game around world top guilds isn't. Good example was nerfing corruptions after race was over.
    Trying to turn wow into esport game also isn't ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    I mean it does matter in this discussion though right? The 10 vs 25man discussion how almost always had to do with balance. If they aren't balanced people will usually lean to the easier version if it grants the same reward. So making 10 and 20(25)man versions of mythic doesnt really do much other than splitting the raiding community. Both versions come with their own unique social issues and I don't think either is exclusively better from a social stand point.
    I can guarantee that even if 10 man was literally designed to be little harder than 20 it would still be insanely more popular than 20. Yes that doesn't mean you have to get rid on 20, you just have stop giving a shit what is easier/harder and start having fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    You keep linking uunat like O look 20 man has class stacking too but Method didn't even win the world first race with that comp stacking so clearly it didn't have the impact you imply it did. Pieces did, with only 4 warlocks. The example I posted points to pretty stong evidence to the impact of class stacking in 10man and its impact on progression speeds.
    Thats the thing 95% of guilds can't even do. So who is blizzard designing this game for? Top 5% of 2% of players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    25 man will always have a higher max difficulty than 10 man because there are more points of failure and the sheer amount of space taken up by 25 or 20 man is just so much bigger especially when there are mechanics that force spreading. For example Sylv mythic forces a very specific pattern of spreading that would be an absolute non issue in 10 man.
    Until you realize stack/spread mechanics isn't the only type of mechanic you could do. Introduce type of "pass the ball" mechanic and 20M could do that with eyes closed while 10M would shit their pants.

    Its amusing how creatively bankrupt blizzard (and players too) became when the only thing they can think of is "confined space mechanics".

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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You appear to be on quest to disagree just to disagree. It doesn't matter if 10man was harder(theoretically); it was still objectively a deficient gametype because it's a game of 12 classes; 5man is also crap in terms of that: e.g. ALL the latest 5man world records have a frost mage and others get the bench.
    It doesnt matter how many classes game have. You are speaking about something that 99% of raiders dont give a single flying fuck. 1% does because they have enough people and alts to fill any role. Rest will simply bring more skilled players and in worst case scenario where boss design is pure garbage (like ghuun) they will try to level up alts.

    So no, its simply irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    And you insist to not understand the history of the game itself; it was 25man guilds who made the most hard core "10man" raids because they could cherry pick the perfect class setup; the best "10man" players applied to 25man guilds when they changed guild to improve their progress.
    Designing game for "most hardcore" guilds is equivalent of failing as game designer. And again, you dont seem to understand that 25man guilds multiplied by two was still a drop in the sea. You seems to be confused when you think its good idea to look at just the top, not the overall raiding scene.
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Having competitive side is ok, designing game around world top guilds isn't. Good example was nerfing corruptions after race was over.
    Trying to turn wow into esport game also isn't ok.


    I can guarantee that even if 10 man was literally designed to be little harder than 20 it would still be insanely more popular than 20. Yes that doesn't mean you have to get rid on 20, you just have stop giving a shit what is easier/harder and start having fun.


    Thats the thing 95% of guilds can't even do. So who is blizzard designing this game for? Top 5% of 2% of players.
    I agree that designing around the top isnt a good idea, but im not sure how any of my points only relate to the top world guilds. I thought they nerfed echo'ing void before n'zoth died. Like when there were blood dks stacking it in w/e gear they could find even cloth gear just to do insane damage. Maybe my memory just sucks though, corruption def created some unhealthy gameplay.

    I do think people would be more likely to face mechanical challenges over social ones. We are on the internet and most players would rather hit keys harder then communicate better. Part of the fun for me is overcoming the hardest challenges in the raiding environment, but its incredibly unlikely they could make 10man consistently a bit harder then 20.

    I'm not convinced they really design around the top few world guilds and I think my examples kinda show that. Raid stacking in 20man doesn't guarantee WF wins as per your own example with uunat. Not gonna pretend it doesn't help but to only make mechanics that certain classes don't excel would probably be impossible or every fight being patchwerk. If we don't want fights designed around class stacking(we agree on this) we need to address how to prevent 10man comps stacking not making the raid an absolute joke, I hope we agree that comp stacking has huge impact in 10 man.

    I think the only way to make 10man feel inclusive to all specs/classes being "viable" would be to just make the expected difficulty lower so raids even in the top 500 don't feel like class stacking is going to significantly raise their success chances. I don't want mythic to be easier.... but if you think it being easier isnt a problem its probably the end of the convo because we would just be arguing about whose opinion is more right.
    The other option which is probably more agreeable is to lower the impact of cds, things like combustion, wild spirits, moonkin cds(forget the names) do such INSANE spikes in dps that they turn those specs into essentially multiple players for their durations. This results in situations that support the damage profile much easier. I don't know if you play atm or raided SoD at all but moonkins in particular have really strong uses late in the raid on both KT and Sylv, mentally trying to convert this to 10man would probably be sending 1 moonkin per phase into the KT room and 1 moonkin 1 tank 1 healer to the colossus side in p2 sylv. If you don't have moonkins though suddenly you need to send 2 players to replace them which is gonna to make the other group have a much harder time. This also needs to apply to unique class utilities like gateway and mass dispel which can effect the whole grp where they either need to exist on multiple classes or somehow not be useful on the important end tier fights. I don't really want to see all this class ID stripped either.

    Do you support 1 of these ideas and if not how do you address the impact of class stacking in a competitive and difficult 10man environment?

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    ou are speaking about something that 99% of raiders dont give a single flying fuck.
    You insist on talking with imaginary data. You effectively call people liars when they tell you they do not agree with you.

    Please bring data that support your numbers or stop repeating them.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    I do think people would be more likely to face mechanical challenges over social ones. We are on the internet and most players would rather hit keys harder then communicate better. Part of the fun for me is overcoming the hardest challenges in the raiding environment, but its incredibly unlikely they could make 10man consistently a bit harder then 20.
    Its unlikely only if you cannot design interesting encounters and the only thing that makes encounter hard is to move a damn camera to see shit. Where is reaction time mechanics? Where are orientation mechanics?

    WoW absolutely had nice stuff like jadefire masters multi sided strike, oregorger, trains boss, hanzok and fransgar "dance party".
    Meanwhile bosses where you "needed classes" were utter garbagio.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    I'm not convinced they really design around the top few world guilds and I think my examples kinda show that. Raid stacking in 20man doesn't guarantee WF wins as per your own example with uunat. Not gonna pretend it doesn't help but to only make mechanics that certain classes don't excel would probably be impossible or every fight being patchwerk. If we don't want fights designed around class stacking(we agree on this) we need to address how to prevent 10man comps stacking not making the raid an absolute joke, I hope we agree that comp stacking has huge impact in 10 man.
    Stacking never guarantees anything. Having 15 monkeys playing best classes won't give you boss kills. And if stacking classes gives significant advantage then it means blizzard failed miserably at balance. You are barking here at wrong tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    I think the only way to make 10man feel inclusive to all specs/classes being "viable" would be to just make the expected difficulty lower so raids even in the top 500 don't feel like class stacking is going to significantly raise their success chances. I don't want mythic to be easier.... but if you think it being easier isnt a problem its probably the end of the convo because we would just be arguing about whose opinion is more right.
    Raids should be inclusive towards PEOPLE not towards classes. And again, if some spec isn't "viable" then blizzard failed at balancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    The other option which is probably more agreeable is to lower the impact of cds, things like combustion, wild spirits, moonkin cds(forget the names) do such INSANE spikes in dps that they turn those specs into essentially multiple players for their durations. This results in situations that support the damage profile much easier. I don't know if you play atm or raided SoD at all but moonkins in particular have really strong uses late in the raid on both KT and Sylv, mentally trying to convert this to 10man would probably be sending 1 moonkin per phase into the KT room and 1 moonkin 1 tank 1 healer to the colossus side in p2 sylv. If you don't have moonkins though suddenly you need to send 2 players to replace them which is gonna to make the other group have a much harder time. This also needs to apply to unique class utilities like gateway and mass dispel which can effect the whole grp where they either need to exist on multiple classes or somehow not be useful on the important end tier fights. I don't really want to see all this class ID stripped either.

    Do you support 1 of these ideas and if not how do you address the impact of class stacking in a competitive and difficult 10man environment?
    Impact of CDS is the right answer, blizzard failed to learn for a fukken 5 expansions in a row that giving some broken shit that produces giga burst of damage is going to break raids.

    MoP - rune of reorigination, assurance of consequence, warrior trinket, cloaks.
    WoD = mages blasting bosses in 18 seconds, ring that deleted bosses, and probably other stuff i dont remember rn.
    Legion = whole class design was about blasting shit to oblivion, weapons, broken trinkets, broken leggos
    BfA = mages again, some azerite powers, some essences, corruptions
    SL = some covenant abilities, some trinkets

    Like what the fuck, how bad can you be at your job to not realize for 8+ years that burst is the problem?
    Ship has been abandoned.
    ---

    NextUI for XIV


  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Xath View Post
    You aren't getting flex raid sizes for mythic not happening and 10 was a joke there were sub 30 pull endbosses in 10 man.

    - - - Updated - - -



    25 man will always have a higher max difficulty than 10 man because there are more points of failure and the sheer amount of space taken up by 25 or 20 man is just so much bigger especially when there are mechanics that force spreading. For example Sylv mythic forces a very specific pattern of spreading that would be an absolute non issue in 10 man.
    So 10 man was poorly tuned. There's nothing that says you can't make it harder.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    I agree that designing around the top isnt a good idea, but im not sure how any of my points only relate to the top world guilds. I thought they nerfed echo'ing void before n'zoth died. Like when there were blood dks stacking it in w/e gear they could find even cloth gear just to do insane damage. Maybe my memory just sucks though, corruption def created some unhealthy gameplay.

    I do think people would be more likely to face mechanical challenges over social ones. We are on the internet and most players would rather hit keys harder then communicate better. Part of the fun for me is overcoming the hardest challenges in the raiding environment, but its incredibly unlikely they could make 10man consistently a bit harder then 20.

    I'm not convinced they really design around the top few world guilds and I think my examples kinda show that. Raid stacking in 20man doesn't guarantee WF wins as per your own example with uunat. Not gonna pretend it doesn't help but to only make mechanics that certain classes don't excel would probably be impossible or every fight being patchwerk. If we don't want fights designed around class stacking(we agree on this) we need to address how to prevent 10man comps stacking not making the raid an absolute joke, I hope we agree that comp stacking has huge impact in 10 man.

    I think the only way to make 10man feel inclusive to all specs/classes being "viable" would be to just make the expected difficulty lower so raids even in the top 500 don't feel like class stacking is going to significantly raise their success chances. I don't want mythic to be easier.... but if you think it being easier isnt a problem its probably the end of the convo because we would just be arguing about whose opinion is more right.
    The other option which is probably more agreeable is to lower the impact of cds, things like combustion, wild spirits, moonkin cds(forget the names) do such INSANE spikes in dps that they turn those specs into essentially multiple players for their durations. This results in situations that support the damage profile much easier. I don't know if you play atm or raided SoD at all but moonkins in particular have really strong uses late in the raid on both KT and Sylv, mentally trying to convert this to 10man would probably be sending 1 moonkin per phase into the KT room and 1 moonkin 1 tank 1 healer to the colossus side in p2 sylv. If you don't have moonkins though suddenly you need to send 2 players to replace them which is gonna to make the other group have a much harder time. This also needs to apply to unique class utilities like gateway and mass dispel which can effect the whole grp where they either need to exist on multiple classes or somehow not be useful on the important end tier fights. I don't really want to see all this class ID stripped either.

    Do you support 1 of these ideas and if not how do you address the impact of class stacking in a competitive and difficult 10man environment?
    I would make classes more homogenous. Stop actively trying to give every class its special niche.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You insist on talking with imaginary data. You effectively call people liars when they tell you they do not agree with you.

    Please bring data that support your numbers or stop repeating them.
    Interesting because in your last post you claimed that 10 man was "objectively deficient" which isn't true either. The hardest part of this argument is the pro 20 man people keep claiming ridiculous absolutes - it's impossible to make 10 man harder, 20 man is objectively better because "blah blah I don't know what objectively means."

    There are arguments to be made there - 20 man has tended to be better balanced, it's easier to have more variety in 20 man. But as soon as you start talking in absolutes you're typically wrong.
    Last edited by Coniferous; 2021-12-19 at 02:16 PM.

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    What are you even on about? You do realize that "less mechanics" is complete BS because the amount of people that has to deal with them is halved right? So no, you dont have to deal with less mechanics.



    Yes you can, the fact first X bosses being dead first day is living proof of that. All you need is time and either skill or gear.

    Please, mediocre players can absolutely do raids in 19 people. You clearly haven't done any higher raiding.





    What kind of nonsense is that 10 man is easier but it was harder when it was tuned to be harder. Get off your high horse, this is becoming ridiculous.

    And no, you dont have less mechanics to deal with, the amount of mechanics was the same. Targets were fewer since you had half of the group. Still much more personal resposibility.

    And again, if they were easier why 10M was killed roughly same time as 25M? Hmm?
    Do you not understand simple logic, if the larger raid difficulty puts a mechanic on 3 times more players you have to deal with 3 times more mechanics, using up more space and team members, some small number of 10 man bosses have only been harder because the boss fight was broken for the content and thats it, but then again harder is subjective.

    There is plenty of evidence that proves you wrong, 25 man was harder thats a simple fact.

    You have obviously not done higher raiding, you cant just carry through players, many of the fights in CN mythic required players to play properly, if even one person was dead weight you wont even clear half the raid on mythic, to carry through mythic the other 19 players need to play properly, you have just proven you are talking BS claiming an average guild can carry players through mythic, an average guild in WoW wont even kill 6/10 M before next tier. One player making a mistake with current mechanics means a wipe.

    10 man was cleared in most cases much faster than 25 man was, the fights were not harder in 10 man they were tuned to require more gear so in some cases they only took longer because players needed more gear. If you do both the content with the same gear 10 man was just facerolled, it was not even slightly a challenge.
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  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    So 10 man was poorly tuned. There's nothing that says you can't make it harder.
    The problem with smaller group content is that at some point difficulty just becomes "how big number go" versus how players defeat the big number. That's why infinite scaling on M+ works as well as it does. I don't think the same thing would work as well in raiding. (As I've said before, the closest thing we have to this actually happening was 10M H-Garry, an encounter that isn't exactly fondly remembered by people who progressed on the pre-nerf version of the encounter.) At some point you're sacrificing encounter design for faux difficulty which isn't exactly an exciting way to design a raid encounter, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    I would make classes more homogenous. Stop actively trying to give every class its special niche.
    I find it quaintly ironic that in almost any other thread about the problems that WoW has, you see page after page of people saying that Blizzard doesn't innovate enough (or, more commonly, that they're incapable of innovation). Yet, for some reason, people who want 10M Heroic are perfectly content with Blizzard doing the exact opposite of innovation.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2021-12-19 at 05:58 PM.

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    The problem with smaller group content is that at some point difficulty just becomes "how big number go" versus how players defeat the big number. That's why infinite scaling on M+ works as well as it does. I don't think the same thing would work as well in raiding. (As I've said before, the closest thing we have to this actually happening was 10M H-Garry, an encounter that isn't exactly fondly remembered by people who progressed on the pre-nerf version of the encounter.) At some point you're sacrificing encounter design for faux difficulty which isn't exactly an exciting way to design a raid encounter, imo.



    I find it quaintly ironic that in almost any other thread about the problems that WoW has, you see page after page of people saying that Blizzard doesn't innovate enough (or, more commonly, that they're incapable of innovation). Yet, for some reason, people who want 10M Heroic are perfectly content with Blizzard doing the exact opposite of innovation.
    Complexity is the enemy of innovation. Blizzard has bogged themselves down building these incredibly complex raids with an overwhelming number of mechanics and difficulties, so they have a hard time releasing anything. Simplifying class balance and lowering raid size would allow them to move faster than their current glacial pace.

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by Coniferous View Post
    Complexity is the enemy of innovation. Blizzard has bogged themselves down building these incredibly complex raids with an overwhelming number of mechanics and difficulties, so they have a hard time releasing anything. Simplifying class balance and lowering raid size would allow them to move faster than their current glacial pace.
    Given the insane amount of tertiary non-raid content each patch has, I'm very weary to say that a majority of their development time goes into them. Also, "complexity is the enemy of innovation" is not a universal truth. You are actively arguing against Blizzard making individual experiences for each class when you say that homogenization is the only way they can balance the game. And worse, you're only arguing for it because it supports your selfish position that smaller raid sizes are better for the game.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2021-12-19 at 06:32 PM.

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    Do you not understand simple logic, if the larger raid difficulty puts a mechanic on 3 times more players you have to deal with 3 times more mechanics, using up more space and team members, some small number of 10 man bosses have only been harder because the boss fight was broken for the content and thats it, but then again harder is subjective.
    It's not "logic" its bullshit. Its not "group" who deals with mechanic, but people.

    Just because suddenly 2 out of 10 people instead of 3/4 out of 25 has to soak something doesn't mean its "less mechanics". The amount of mechanics is the same, just the number of targets changes.
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