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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Welcome to classic WoW...and lots of people wanting this stuff back

    This is EXACTLY what the old talent trees used to be...mostly passive stat boosts
    https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-calc/mage

    12 for fire mage alone that allowed to percentage increase what you wanted as opposed to one off passive bonus. you are wrong.
    Last edited by MasterOfNone; 2021-12-05 at 09:26 PM.

  2. #22
    Because people complained that there was no way to specifically talent a character and that they wanted trees back. So blizzard made a compromise and instead of having to redo talent trees of old each expansion they left character trees the same and added these and satiated the masses….who now complain about having trees again

  3. #23
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Even the hybrid stuff had a bunch of mandatory talents you had to take or you literally trolling. In Cata you were required to put a certain amount of points in one tree before you could put any points in another so it further restricted your potential creativity. If anything, the MoP+ system allows for more customization than talent trees ever did. If they brought them back, you'd see the same people who are currently complaining for their return instead complaining that they feel too restrictive.
    I don't see how they're any different. Perhaps this is class/spec specific thing, but you have mandatory builds/talents as you did before.

    I'm not in favour of any of the trees, rather I support - I assume like most people - that more talents in your tree be more viable. Moreover, let's not pretend that existing systems aren't anything but an extension of old talent trees, that are removed and recycled every new expansion

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Even the hybrid stuff had a bunch of mandatory talents you had to take or you literally trolling. In Cata you were required to put a certain amount of points in one tree before you could put any points in another so it further restricted your potential creativity. If anything, the MoP+ system allows for more customization than talent trees ever did. If they brought them back, you'd see the same people who are currently complaining for their return instead complaining that they feel too restrictive.
    I'm agreeing with you. I hear people talk about fun hybrid builds like 21/20/whuddever but for me at least I had no wiggle room. I do remember the Cata change that you had to finish your tree before branching out. I guess that was the death knell. I'm not good with numbers. 7 rows of 3. How many potential combos is that? Definitely a lot more than the illusion of choice we had before, with some exceptions.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    Everyone games differently but if there's a gun (or anything) and the gun does 1 more damage than my current gun then I want that gun because it's better. Armor with 1 more armor, boots with 1 more speed point, bags with one more slot, etc. From the early 90s all the way up to now that's how I've gamed, "What's better? Then I want that".
    Man, I'm exactly the opposite. I couldn't care less if my character does 100 points of damage or 101 points of damage. In fact, on all games I play I prefer to turn off/simplify most numbers so they won't distract me from the actual game.

    There must be something to the game. A good story, gameplay, soundtrack, art direction or mystery. For 99% of the games with traditional RPG progression out there, I'd much prefer to get rid of it all.

    Making customizable character stats sheets on videogames was a mistake. IMO they should just let you pick different loadouts and scale your power level by how much you've progressed in the actual (non-grinding) content.

    Fuck farming

  6. #26
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfNone View Post
    https://classic.wowhead.com/talent-calc/mage

    12 for fire mage alone that allowed to percentage increase what you wanted as opposed to one off passive bonus. you are wrong.
    Umm...that's what passive stat boosts are, they do nothing but increase damage. Where you know as with modern talents they cut all that bs out and just got rid of all those increase damage to this ability or that set of abilities

    So sorry...I'm right
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbidaggy View Post
    Because people complained that there was no way to specifically talent a character and that they wanted trees back. So blizzard made a compromise and instead of having to redo talent trees of old each expansion they left character trees the same and added these and satiated the masses….who now complain about having trees again
    If you don't give people exactly what they want then you can't blame them for complaining ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. If I tell you I want a cheeseburger with swiss cheese and you give me one with american cheese you're wrong. I didn't ask for cheese I asked for swiss cheese, they didn't want some rando talent trees they wanted talent trees of old.
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  8. #28
    Old talent trees gave you the idea of a more constant progression and work on your character that gradually became stronger. But it was only an idea - while i like old trees more it was only an illusion of choice and customization.

    Cookie cutter builds are a thing and always will be. So no matter how talents are implemented people will always have the same builds. New talents didn't change anything, made it only more apparent.

    In World of Excelcraft, talent trees/talents are completely useless. Soulbinds in SL are just the same thing. There's no player choice involved, only a guy that does the calculations (or a website) and people who copy that.

    Even in the case of perfect balance, people will flock towards passive/easier to use options cause they end being more consistent in performance.

    So, talents/soulbinds serve only the purpose of giving more olayer power over time in a controlled fashion. Gameplay wise, they have zero player agency since there's only one best option.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  9. #29
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    bloodmoth13
    Old vanilla talent trees were just like this, incredibly boring. Also they were cookie cutter samey samey.

    They frankly didnt function as a system to build your unique character since everyone built the same way, but they DID give a solid feel of progression.
    Relapses
    Talent trees up until MoP were boring as fuck. You literally would use the same fucking build 99% of the time. They were pointless.
    I have a quote with better wording because you are greatly mistaken in your statements:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    ps. Main advantage of old trees wasn't diversity (although it was, global system allowed to have it, but why? and answer is further), but freedom to choose each/any/little step of progress/castimization elements without violating class priorities. In other words, what was previously part of choice is no longer one = it's spec's default package now, but what was previously available to class as such has become "choice element" and not even everything, but only stuff, that devs decided for this spec... imo, deal is wildly unfair.
    so this statement will be much more honest and closer to reality:
    Coldkil
    Cookie cutter builds are a thing and always will be. So no matter how talents are implemented people will always have the same builds.
    and maybe some link like this (it's written in great detail here why with new system's version everything became even worse in relation to last quote). I'll say more, what they give out can in no way be considered for a number of strong reasons as what you have reminded (1st 2 quotes)...

    ...which (same as rest of above stuff) will bring us back to topics with discussion of hierarchy of RPG customization system and its main principle for this game, which, from my considerations, hasn't changed in any way (regardless of whether devs take it into account or not). There is a lot of material here (at least sequence/priority/subordination), albeit a little chaotic, but essence is there.

    Just to warm up, if we take private statement for consideration like this:
    Kithelle
    Umm...that's what passive stat boosts are, they do nothing but increase damage. Where you know as with modern talents they cut all that bs out and just got rid of all those increase damage to this ability or that set of abilities

    So sorry...I'm right
    then I want to point out number of inconsistencies in connection with something like this - see? "percentages just increase damage", but in essence it make changes in equipment&combat strategy, and so with most of these "boring" talents. There were very few of really boring ones, but even they completely fulfilled their conceived function, this is their area of responsibility - modification/improvement of mechanics available to the whole class. So, sorry...you're wrong. So were devs, when did this. For reference: gear's/characteristics area of responsibility is, in fact, character's role in encounter, and, if possible, in no case more then this.

    ps. However, I'd not want to turn this topic into another debate about borrowed powers (which, in fact, most of this nonsense is, it's 4th and lowest of levels in hierarchy with minimal influence, supposed to be, but devs repeat this blunder over and over again), therefore I humbly bow...
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2021-12-07 at 06:34 AM.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Umm...that's what passive stat boosts are, they do nothing but increase damage. Where you know as with modern talents they cut all that bs out and just got rid of all those increase damage to this ability or that set of abilities

    So sorry...I'm right
    wrong. because the boost is all at one time. this does not allow you to hybrid build. if i wanted a flat increase of 5% as opposed to 5 ranks of 1% where i might take 3% and take two other damage mitigating talents at 2%, now i cant. it was better the way it was. since when is it worse to give players MORE options as opposed to less?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Ladey Gags View Post
    People constantly asked for talent trees to come back after MoP threw them out so in blizzard fashion they decide to make every new system introduced have a talent tree making people sick of them to where they then start asking to stop adding talent trees

    Can’t make this shit up
    This is a typical Blizzard problem. People ask for some very specific stuff and Blizzard makes a half assed version of it that sucks.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    End-game character progression outside of gear progression is a thing. It was there since Pandaria and apparently people like it. Not me, though.

    I guess, casuals, who don't want to engage in social activities, are cut from gear progression in raids, M+ or PvP. So they implemented separate character progression which does not require any skill or effort outside of time spent.
    Nope, those self proclaimed casuals that log 40 hours a week(not casual then just stubborn) also want raid level gear for doing menial tasks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    This is a typical Blizzard problem. People ask for some very specific stuff and Blizzard makes a half assed version of it that sucks.
    Except that isn't what the systems are. They're essentially the replacement for nerfing the raid bosses by whatever percent that they always did once the tier was cleared enough.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    If you don't give people exactly what they want then you can't blame them for complaining ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. If I tell you I want a cheeseburger with swiss cheese and you give me one with american cheese you're wrong. I didn't ask for cheese I asked for swiss cheese, they didn't want some rando talent trees they wanted talent trees of old.
    True but you can’t tell me that the old trees were actually meaningful and better. They were cookie cutter trees that had so much bloat nobody used half the stuff. Instead they baked it into the class and gave you the other options which are still cookie cutter but a lot less so now.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    End-game character progression outside of gear progression is a thing. It was there since Pandaria and apparently people like it. Not me, though.

    I guess, casuals, who don't want to engage in social activities, are cut from gear progression in raids, M+ or PvP. So they implemented separate character progression which does not require any skill or effort outside of time spent.
    So much this. Also as a casual who occasionally subscribes and plays M+ dungeons I too despite outside of gear/talents progression systems that die with the end of the expansion. I want my old talent trees back. They were so much more fun at experimenting than what we have now.

  15. #35
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbidaggy View Post
    Because people complained that there was no way to specifically talent a character and that they wanted trees back. So blizzard made a compromise and instead of having to redo talent trees of old each expansion they left character trees the same and added these and satiated the masses….who now complain about having trees again
    I understood the logic of redoing the old trees, I have mixed feelings about where they went and what replaced them, but they were at least function and in one place in the interface.

    Since Legion, new talent trees seem to have become the answer to everything to make every piece of 'new content' "interesting" and "desirable" to do; and to tie them to the new content, access happens in a new place in world. It's obviously tied to the backlash of being tied to Garrisons for literally everything in WoD, but it just seems to exist for the sake of travel. So, I come back into the game, and you're just immediately lost with 'where the fuck do I do this? Why I can't I do this here, where can I do that?' It very quickly leads to "Well I can't be arsed with travelling three times around the game world before I can even think about doing the actual playing the game"; even if you get to that point, the level of power creep to catch up with feels even more insurmountable.

  16. #36
    Stood in the Fire Hastis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    ,l

    I dont think its a bad idea but it definitely feels bad.

    Old vanilla talent trees were just like this, incredibly boring. Also they were cookie cutter samey samey.

    They frankly didnt function as a system to build your unique character since everyone built the same way, but they DID give a solid feel of progression.

    Blizz essentially brought them back for strictly end game progression instead of leveling. It should have sated nostalgia folk, and it should have given a sense of frequent progression for end game.

    Azerite at least gave some interesting choices, but azerite, soulbinds, artifacts etc all try to do the same thing in different ways. It really doesnt seem though that they have been learning from each system and they just start from scratch each time instead of refining it.
    yeah but every time i lvled uped i feel like nice new talent maybe it was 1% boost but still make feel more intrestet in game than those new ones which is ok but meh i just could have those in spell book

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dudenoso View Post
    Man, I'm exactly the opposite. I couldn't care less if my character does 100 points of damage or 101 points of damage. In fact, on all games I play I prefer to turn off/simplify most numbers so they won't distract me from the actual game.

    There must be something to the game. A good story, gameplay, soundtrack, art direction or mystery. For 99% of the games with traditional RPG progression out there, I'd much prefer to get rid of it all.

    Making customizable character stats sheets on videogames was a mistake. IMO they should just let you pick different loadouts and scale your power level by how much you've progressed in the actual (non-grinding) content.

    Fuck farming
    thats why there is no point of gong back to city during 1-50 it kills that rpg elemtns

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Hastis View Post
    yeah but every time i lvled uped i feel like nice new talent maybe it was 1% boost but still make feel more intrestet in game than those new ones which is ok but meh i just could have those in spell book

    - - - Updated - - -



    thats why there is no point of gong back to city during 1-50 it kills that rpg elemtns
    As i said, they gave a sense of progression. New abilities should feel better but they dont contribute to an end goal.
    I think the entire character customization bound to it was bad overall, i remember leveling an enhance shaman and not getting a single good ability till level 40 where it was mutually exclusive from the other specs, that was frankly crap and the change in cataclysm made leveling feel significantly better.

    Bringing talent trees back as end game progression should have recaptured that feeling without constricting new characters to worthless 1% talents, and i think they kind of succeeded in legion, but tying it to a grind was probably a poor choice.

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