Has there ever been an Xpac that wasn't shat on by the community

[cparle87]

What a bizarre response. First of all, I was responding to that poster's summary of complaints about each expansion. I am aware a lot people hated dailies in MoP. And in the same breath, grindy systems and chores are far from the only things people hate about modern WoW. Nothing I said was meant to be a totality of the gripes on WoW over the years.

As the second part of your post, I honestly don't know what you're even going on about. Never did I insinuate criticism about the game is bad nor that I am the arbiter who chooses what criticisms are worthy. My point was merely that people complain even when things mildly upset them or upset them enough to quit and those types of complaints are equal.

What do you mean "modern WoW"? The game has always been grindy. It's merely HOW the grind is shaped and people's acceptance of it that has changed. Reps haven't changed, for instance. How is killing rares for Ve'nari and turning in research for the Archive any different than killing and turnins for say Argent Dawn or Timbermaw? I don't think it is.

[saintminya]

There are definitely good parts to both Cata and WoD. Cata had a couple of really strong raids and also had some really good world design. But overall, it was WotLK-lite, and people hated Dragon Soul for being far substandard compared to other raids of the same size. WoD had GREAT visuals and leveling and raids. Beyond that, it was lackluster and felt incomplete.

Anyone at the time bringing these kind of positive points forward would have been suffocated under the weight of hate posts.

Indeed, it is unfortunate just how much hate has to be sifted through before coming across any positivity. It was unfortunate that DS ended up being the weakest raid after the 3.5 before it ranging from great to excellent. Firelands being excellent and Bastion of Twilight not being far off. The lore of DS was still cool to me, and I really appreciated the lead-in from the End Times dungeon set. No argument from me regarding the incompleteness of WoD, as my biggest gripe with that expansion was how quickly it was abandoned. Conversely, SL's evident abandonment thrills me.

[Ielenia]

Yes... TBC and WotLK. Activision bought Blizz during WotlK and turned the game to shit after that.

Oh, you're wrong. Very wrong.

[Xires]

I’ve been on the forums since late vanilla and it’s always been a shit show of crying and complaints that the game sucks.

Other than raid loot being too low and patches being too slow I still feel Shadowlands has overall been solid.

It’s sucks they are cutting it a patch short.

You may "feel" that it is solid. But the numbers and sub cancels say otherwise. So does them cutting an entire patch out. And they are still losing people.

Now they have classic:mastery or some crap like that...anything to keep the money rolling in. Things are so bad...blizzard NEEDS their old stuff. Because the new stuff is utter shit.
I've played since Vanilla...I quit in SL's because I couldn't take how bad the game has become. The people I got to come BACK to the game during Legion...have quit again and this time for good. I quit too. It's that bad. When someone like ME quits a game he's been playing since early 2006....your games in trouble.

Used to defend this game...now no way.

[Relapses]

You may "feel" that it is solid. But the numbers and sub cancels say otherwise. So does them cutting an entire patch out. And they are still losing people.

Now they have classic:mastery or some crap like that...anything to keep the money rolling in. Things are so bad...blizzard NEEDS their old stuff. Because the new stuff is utter shit.
I've played since Vanilla...I quit in SL's because I couldn't take how bad the game has become. The people I got to come BACK to the game during Legion...have quit again and this time for good. I quit too. It's that bad. When someone like ME quits a game he's been playing since early 2006....your games in trouble.

Used to defend this game...now no way.

Because it's normal for people to pay $15/mo to play the same fucking video game for 20 years? Ever consider maybe you're the exception not the rule?

[Kithelle]

Honestly not sure why torghast is so hated?
I've actually enjoyed it since launch. It's been fun to get all those crazy powers and just go all in.
And for a legendary acquisition grind? It's been by far the best system for me personally.
Even for alts it hasn't been all to bad with being able to jump in at highest.

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Never once felt that way outside of legion, which was also the first expansion i quit wow for.
Cataclysm is still today my favorite expansion only tied with MoP because MoP had the best rotations and raids in the history of wow, at least for me.

Just because you don't doesn't mean that is typically how the majority of the masses react...just like most players act like they're the 1% and need to pinch out every ounce of dps even though it will never matter for most of them

[tomten]

Just because you don't doesn't mean that is typically how the majority of the masses react...just like most players act like they're the 1% and need to pinch out every ounce of dps even though it will never matter for most of them

What masses? The tiny vocal minority here? They don't represent the masses.
As been said before, people don't come unless they have something negative to say.
And most people dont come to forums.

[Swnem]

Blizzards' biggest mistake - is constant assumptions, that they know better, what players want. All problems started in Cata, when they decided for the first time, that players actually wanted Vanilla/TBC, not WotLK. Problem is - majority of playerbase started to play in WotLK and so drastic change of game design alienated these players. May be if Blizzard would implement Classic/TBC servers back then, they would realize their mistake.

And WotLK design was about making game super-casual-friendly and allowing casuals to play content, that had been available to hardcores only before that - heroics and raids. This was so big improvement vs something like leveling alts and doing dailies, that many players started to play this game immediately. Imagine, what happened, when Blizzard attempted to take this content away from them, because they decided, that it's better for them to make "true MMO for true MMO players", than successful game? For example GC's biggest mistake was assumption, that players actually liked hardcore group content and so he could change players and force them into guilds.

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Again, players tend to remember last patches of xpacks only. All this things were introduced LATER. Initial design was - Bubble being just plain god mode, plus LOH allowing Paladin to have 2 extra lives against any other player, who had only one.

Erm... that's what i said. It was fixed after the first patch. What a redundant conversation.

[Coldkil]

Honestly not sure why torghast is so hated?

I find it extremely dull and boring, only fun when you're roflstomping it. Also playing solo the experience wildly varies since powers and classes are not balanced for solo content at all - some are trivial some are dependant on very specific powers.

However, this isn't a problem, only a personal preference. The problem is that while i don't like it i have to do it for my Legendary. So to me is bad content, as it's mandatory for a few runs then it loses all value to me. That's the problem with tying important character power to a specific content type. Since not all players enjoy the same stuff, it always ends with people being forced into doing stuff they don't like.

The best solution to this is to make the mandatory currency/reagents/materials available in basically all relevant content, and have them capped weekly for example. So i can farm my 1000 WEEKLY STUFF wherever i want, and i won't lose ground since every week i'm capped.

[roboscorcher]

SL would still be riding the hype wave if its patches were faster. It's just an unfortunate reality that if you let the WoW community dwell on things for more than 77 days at a time the only thing they think about is how much the game sucks.

That's true. I think the devs are in a tight spot because the retail WoW community and shareholders have patch interval expectations set by Legion and BfA. Meanwhile, covid and wfh has probably caused issues and their content design has gotten stale for many players.

[Myradin]

You'd have to buy into the idea that "the community" speaks as one voice for this to be a discussion. Every expansion has its good points and bad, just like every expansion has its detractors and defenders.

This.

Some people like raid logging, others like having more to do.

Some people like PVP, others hate it.

Some like not being forced to grind 24/7 for power, others loath time gating.

Some appreciate difficulty, some appreciate a smooth run.

Some weight the quality of the story highly in their appreciation of the game, others skip every line of dialogue.

A happy balance for all these groups is pretty much impossible. Classic - Wotlk didn't have 12 million people all agreeing on what was 'good' either, and had plenty of people griping about things. Its impotant to remember in MoP they announced there'd been 100 million accounts made. If 12 mil subbed at once was the peak, it shows the game has had pretty remarkable turnover even in its early days.

[Battlebeard]

There will always be this problem, cause people like different things.

My by far favorite expansion was Cataclysm, yet many for some reason don't like it

[tomten]

I find it extremely dull and boring, only fun when you're roflstomping it. Also playing solo the experience wildly varies since powers and classes are not balanced for solo content at all - some are trivial some are dependant on very specific powers.

However, this isn't a problem, only a personal preference. The problem is that while i don't like it i have to do it for my Legendary. So to me is bad content, as it's mandatory for a few runs then it loses all value to me. That's the problem with tying important character power to a specific content type. Since not all players enjoy the same stuff, it always ends with people being forced into doing stuff they don't like.

The best solution to this is to make the mandatory currency/reagents/materials available in basically all relevant content, and have them capped weekly for example. So i can farm my 1000 WEEKLY STUFF wherever i want, and i won't lose ground since every week i'm capped.

For a legendary acquisition, its been the best in the history of wow for me personally. It has to be a grind for it and torghast was a welcomed one over the previous iterations.

I don't agree, having it drop from every activity would mean it just doesn't matter. You would play the game and automatically get a legendary in the mail, no, to important, has to be tied to some form of grind and achievement. Could it be even better than torghast? Absolutely.

[Osmeric]

That's true. I think the devs are in a tight spot because the retail WoW community and shareholders have patch interval expectations set by Legion and BfA. Meanwhile, covid and wfh has probably caused issues and their content design has gotten stale for many players.

Casual PvP used to be a thing people did when content was sparse. But for some insane reason they decided to destroy that. I would love to hear their explanation for this entirely unforced boneheaded blunder.

[Relapses]

Casual PvP used to be a thing people did when content was sparse. But for some insane reason they decided to destroy that. I would love to hear their explanation for this entirely unforced boneheaded blunder.

Because after fifteen years Blizzard finally realized that WoW is a PvE game with a PvP feature, not a PvP focus.

[Uselessrouge]

Legion was pretty good at the end one of the most fun imo

[Osmeric]

Because after fifteen years Blizzard finally realized that WoW is a PvE game with a PvP feature, not a PvP focus.

Yeah, that's about the level of "logic" I'd expect from them. "This thing that people did, that kept them playing, let's get rid of it for no coherent reason."

[Coldkil]

For a legendary acquisition, its been the best in the history of wow for me personally. It has to be a grind for it and torghast was a welcomed one over the previous iterations.

I don't agree, having it drop from every activity would mean it just doesn't matter. You would play the game and automatically get a legendary in the mail, no, to important, has to be tied to some form of grind and achievement. Could it be even better than torghast? Absolutely.

Point is, legendaries are nothing special now. They're the baseline on what your spec is based to work, they're mandatory and they're not hard to get. They're not a grind, they're just timegated and your class wouldn't simply work without them.

These replacement for a talent row are nothing like Thunderfury, Atiesh, etc. They were a grind, hard to get and made a difference. Also you can already go for the "easy way" buy running a couple more weeks the easier thorghast levels for the exact same result.

BTW, last time i simmed my rogue, the difference between a 190 and a 262 legendary was around 2/3% of total damage depending on slot (cause the big part comes from the power which doesn't scale with ilvl). So it isn't even that worth to rush for a max ilvl one.

If anything, the hardest part of getting a legendary is buying the base armor in the ah the first weeks.

EDIT: in some posts before, i stated that legendaries as they are now should just be removed from the game. Again you don't need to agree but if everyone has a legendary, it's not really a legendary anymore.

[Relapses]

Yeah, that's about the level of "logic" I'd expect from them. "This thing that people did, that kept them playing, let's get rid of it for no coherent reason."

Giving players the freedom to Opt-in or out of World PvP without having to transfer servers was a great decision. They've failed to make it worth using in SL but I do remember playing with WM on in BfA because the Ny'alotha dailies were more rewarding if you did. If they encouraged more stuff like that it wouldn't be as bad.

[Osmeric]

Giving players the freedom to Opt-in or out of World PvP without having to transfer servers was a great decision. They've failed to make it worth using in SL but I do remember playing with WM on in BfA because the Ny'alotha dailies were more rewarding if you did. If they encouraged more stuff like that it wouldn't be as bad.

I suspect the focus on world PvP was actually what led to the problem. World PvP ==> PvP-only stats don't work as well ==> gear from casual PvP has to be shit so it doesn't overwhelm PvE gear ==> casual PvP becomes pointless.