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  1. #241
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    he is not a mere foot soldier, he was a shaman, akin to mages, they receive high training, the minimum they could get is a better life and education than normal people

    being an orphan is not an excuse for him not being literate until a blood elf comes up.
    shamans are not a kin to mages, mages have a wholly different education structure set up which is based heavily on arcane text unlike any thing we have seen in shamanism.

    There’s also no reason to think he had a better life then the normal soldier he wasn’t in any officer or adviser position he was just a foot man.

    Again, there is a big difference between common people and soldiers, let alone shamans, soldiers of high rank need to at least know how to read, a shaman should know that, he was trained just like the players were in the beginning of the game.
    this is just fanfic there is no indication what training the player goes throw before the start of the game and becoming the star of the show or that every foot man goes through the same thing.



    yeah, they can't take time, but a blood elf will.

    the moment they realise their student are illiterate, they would tech him the basic, you argument could, make sense, if it was a warrior, you could pretend to say "they would just teach how to beat up shit" but even then would know that reading is necessary.
    again shamanism isn’t shown to be heavily text based any where him be illiterate would be irrelevant to what they were teaching him and given how many soldiers the horde goes through they likely would have less time then some one higher ranking who can delicate work as they are likely basic army trainers giving soldiers with the aptitude basic training.



    it would show anyone in the horde can do that and they don't need a elf to do so, it would show horde races are not savages and pretty capable.


    Again, this hole bit is obnoxious, how can an elf teach a troll how to read and write orcish or troll, this preposterous the book only helps to force bad stereotypes for the horde.
    We already know the other factions leaders could do it as we know they are literate, it’s effectively the same thing.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The wandering Jew that blights the lands and poisons the wells is a very old stereotype actually.
    It's very much deprecated and almost forgotten, but it's hardly a new invention.
    Well poisoning meaning spreading diseases though. Quite different from pollution because their society is run away industrialism.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Well poisoning meaning spreading diseases though. Quite different from pollution because their society is run away industrialism.
    Or blighting the lands because they show up make the water undrinkable, and the lands impossible to farm.

    Exactly how or why goblins destroy the land isn't the important bit, what matters is how it comes across, and in this case you have a race based on an old stereotype, literally acting out a stereotype from the middle ages.


    And no, it wasn't really that important until this book was criticized for making the Horde depicted as ignorant and illiterate savages, which opened the floodgates for all the use of stereotypes, like for instance Zekhan talking about how the goblins came in to ruin everything with their greed. Including things like making the population sick and poisoning their drinking water.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  4. #244
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eillas View Post
    The book got pulled. I just checked barnes and noble also amazon
    Looks like it was pushed back to February according to my pre order which is mighty annoying.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The reason it became relevant in this case is actually because the book has a goblin that literally poisons a well, which could be entirely coincidental on the part of the writer, but is still hardly a good look for the writer.
    That is based on a short story written over a decade ago, because Goblins started to industrialize the area around Durotar / Azshara and thus used the Southfury to dump their waste.

    So, in reality, it's more of a commentary on industrialization and its effects on the enviroment, rather than a specific race conciously poisoning water supplies to kill off the inhabitants of a given area.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Or blighting the lands because they show up make the water undrinkable, and the lands impossible to farm.

    Exactly how or why goblins destroy the land isn't the important bit, what matters is how it comes across, and in this case you have a race based on an old stereotype, literally acting out a stereotype from the middle ages.


    And no, it wasn't really that important until this book was criticized for making the Horde depicted as ignorant and illiterate savages, which opened the floodgates for all the use of stereotypes, like for instance Zekhan talking about how the goblins came in to ruin everything with their greed. Including things like making the population sick and poisoning their drinking water.
    I see your point but there's still an important distinction. That old medieval stereotype existed because people (grossly) in that era believe jews to be inherently evil and just their presence alone cause these things.

    With goblins what you listed is more the logical consequences of their own actions. Much of which is exploitation of nature for profit. Which I would argue is much more of a commentary on American capitalism than specific group of individuals. That also might be why Zekhan a shaman has bias towards them.

    That said, I would still agree that Blizzard should probably show that goblins are capable of more incessant greed in lore and at least some individuals have different motivations.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by florclorbromiod View Post
    Lmao you thought the Night Elves bought those lands or what? They're imperialist conquerors just like the Horde.
    North Kalimdor was home of Cenarius and after WOTA the surviving nigh elfs go there and live in his lands, this lands become there home, there lands.

  8. #248
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by florclorbromiod View Post
    A Shaman should know how nature works.
    Ya that’s not how it works. Being a shaman doesn’t just give you a understanding of every thing In nature they when to be taught and if they were being fast tracked for the front lines parts of lesser importance like erosion could easily be passed over or if they were just a mediocre student/shaman they could easily miss parts of the imparted knowledge.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by AstroPup View Post
    lol fuckin WoWhead...

    https://www.wowhead.com/news/world-o...-racial-325248

    "Waaah new lore book is racist!!!!"

    And of course comments are disabled cause "You might have a different opinion? We'll have none of that!"
    WoWhead is the peak of click bait tabloid of WoW news. They are a worthless source where 90% of the articles are shit, 5% is old information, 3% is some streamer giving their opinion (who the fuck cares?) and the other 2% is relevant.

  10. #250
    I'm thinking. The problem is not the stereotypes.
    The problem is that before the Horde was good and now it is bad.

    Before you said the goblin-Jews are a good race but misunderstood by the world. Come I show you that they are good people.

    Now they tell you the golbin-Jews are a cruel genocidal race that only comes to destroy the world. Come I show you how evil they are and why you should never trust them.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    The books are pretty pitiful in any attempt at adding new storylines or building any new plots. Its generally just a recap of what happened up to BfA with some minor political shifting. Like the Forsaken aren't mentioned as being present in any of the zones in the EK book. Sounds like the NEs got the same treatment in the Kalimdor book other than a very vague "they're planning something" hint.

    That said, the primary need for a revamp is to clean up the mess that Cataclysm made. Although it is troubling they obviously haven't invested much stock in what the story holds for Azeroth.



    This tidbit really annoys me. Like wouldn't the Draenei be even more disgusted than most races after Teldrassil and being the victims of genocide on Draenor themselves?

    I think Blizzard needs to realize that lawful good ≠ being a doormat. Or being so detached emotionally from the in-game universe its actually not believable in the slightest.
    I think you really hit the nail on the head at the end. There's clearly just no REAL thought put into the story. Characters or factions act illogically, all to suit whatever narrative is most convenient.

    I personally think it's time to abandon the 2-faction system (at LEAST for players), and maybe instead give each race their own strong presence. Maybe your race even impact certain place you are or aren't welcome (ie. Tauren being welcome in Night Elven cities, maybe Orcs being more welcoming of Dwarves, etc).

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I'm thinking. The problem is not the stereotypes.
    The problem is that before the Horde was good and now it is bad.

    Before you said the goblin-Jews are a good race but misunderstood by the world. Come I show you that they are good people.

    Now they tell you the golbin-Jews are a cruel genocidal race that only comes to destroy the world. Come I show you how evil they are and why you should never trust them.
    This book isn't exactly great at showing the Horde as noble or whatever core they are supposed to represent though, it shows them as cruel and uncaring savages who are too dumb to fully comprehend why anyone would hate them.

    As has been pointed out, Zekhan isn't just illiterate despite being from a fairly well off tribe of trolls, but doesn't understand basic environmental concepts like erosion despite being a shaman.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    I think you really hit the nail on the head at the end. There's clearly just no REAL thought put into the story. Characters or factions act illogically, all to suit whatever narrative is most convenient.

    I personally think it's time to abandon the 2-faction system (at LEAST for players), and maybe instead give each race their own strong presence. Maybe your race even impact certain place you are or aren't welcome (ie. Tauren being welcome in Night Elven cities, maybe Orcs being more welcoming of Dwarves, etc).
    Sadly the risk then is that without falling under the greater Alliance/Horde umbrella, some races will simply get close to nothing new at all.

    It's better if we assume every race gets equal screen time, but I think we all know that isn't going to happen. Even if the writers really applied themselves to that ethos the game simply cannot sustain that many concurrent plotlines at the some time without losing nuance.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  13. #253
    People just want Blizzard dead/hurt at any costs and are looking for every weakness to exploit. God forbid a fucking troll teenager doesn't know the word erosion. How about you go ask POC teenagers IRL, or teenagers in general?

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    This book isn't exactly great at showing the Horde as noble or whatever core they are supposed to represent though, it shows them as cruel and uncaring savages who are too dumb to fully comprehend why anyone would hate them.
    The lack of this is the real problem with the Book.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The wandering Jew that blights the lands and poisons the wells is a very old stereotype actually.
    It's very much deprecated and almost forgotten, but it's hardly a new invention.
    Yeah but this is not about poisoning wells of water out of malice. It's pollution of natural water streams as happens every day irl.
    The actual wells of water are mentioned to be fine.

    Mistaking both is just either being careless or trying too hard to find something offensive to write about.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Ya that’s not how it works. Being a shaman doesn’t just give you a understanding of every thing In nature they when to be taught and if they were being fast tracked for the front lines parts of lesser importance like erosion could easily be passed over or if they were just a mediocre student/shaman they could easily miss parts of the imparted knowledge.

    Yeah no, that's like a Druid not knowing about photosynthesis.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Loreth88 View Post
    North Kalimdor was home of Cenarius and after WOTA the surviving nigh elfs go there and live in his lands, this lands become there home, there lands.
    The Night Elven empire was already fully realised by WOTA. They pushed out other races from these lands.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by florclorbromiod View Post

    The Night Elven empire was already fully realised by WOTA. They pushed out other races from these lands.
    Wtf i write to you there is the home of Cenarius, they not push him and his children out.

  18. #258
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by florclorbromiod View Post
    Yeah no, that's like a Druid not knowing about photosynthesis.
    I mean given that the first Druids were a nocturnal race and could just magic plants into growing with no need of the sun it’s likely many don’t know what photosynthesis is.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by AstroPup View Post
    lol fuckin WoWhead...

    https://www.wowhead.com/news/world-o...-racial-325248

    "Waaah new lore book is racist!!!!"

    And of course comments are disabled cause "You might have a different opinion? We'll have none of that!"
    Goblins will always be the little green, crafty and greedy punks of Warcraft, the average orc will always be seen as a blackblood savage by the humans and the average human will always be a puny pinkskin to a mighty orcish warrior of the Horde. This is Warcraft and no amount of protesting or Blizzard pulling their books can change this.

    Warcraft was dark, yet cartoony all the same. Inspired by some of the greatest and most popular works of fiction and ancient mythology, there was nothing to not like about it.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-12-13 at 04:27 PM.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by EbaumsTipster View Post
    People just want Blizzard dead/hurt at any costs and are looking for every weakness to exploit. God forbid a fucking troll teenager doesn't know the word erosion. How about you go ask POC teenagers IRL, or teenagers in general?
    It's not that he isn't aware of this one specific thing, it's a combination of him being illiterate for no reason, unknowing of the general mechanics of what he is supposed to be trained in, and all in all coming across like a generic racist hick.

    It all crystallizes into this weird portrayal of the Horde as unlearned savages, rather than a complex collection of races with different worldviews.


    It's problematic because this isn't just a random character in the book, it's the main character we view everything through, and making said character seem like a bad stereotype in turn making light of other bad stereotypes leaves a bit of a sour note on the whole thing.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

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