"World of Warcraft: Exploring Azeroth - Kalimdor" Lore and Updates [Spoilers]

[nnelson54]

[QUOTE=Radeghost;53510296]False, there are none. I haven't seen even one of them.


That's true.


Weird, never seen that.


That's not true, there's no new dock at the Echo Isles.


That's untrue, they are still hostile towards the Night Elves.

[quote]There is also a brand-new Shatterspear troll character and chieftain, Ohseso, loyal to the Horde and its interests.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ohseso[quote]
He's nowhere to be seen

Understandable


How so? Where are they now? Why can't I join them, then?



Uhh, not true at all, nothing changed since Cataclysm in that case.

The night elves:


Not true at all, I can't join CC as my druid.

Untrue, there's no new sentinel tree to be seen.

[quote]The draenei:
- The Exodar is successfully repaired and capable of travel, Velen is still leading the draenei! But their people favored the Vindicaar to include all of Azeroth's forces against the Legion during the last war.

No, it's still under repair, just go to Exodar to see it yourself.

Weird, last time I checked, I was hostile with them on my Horde char.


Either this book is non-cannon, or the game is.

This is the strangest post I have ever read on these forums.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

low ranking shamans?? Vanira together with zentabra

You might have noticed that not every shaman/druid is Vanira or zentabra and that there not all on the same ranking as them.

and once again, shamans, priests and warlocks will be called witch doctors as well, until Blizzard fleshes then out they are not "their own class", just like "blademaster" aren't their own class.

classes are just a game play thing lorewise there are many different sub rolls and factions and ingame classes are irrelevant to how they are treated in each society.

Thinking a shaman, a being who can talk to spirits, make hexes and all the rest would be a low ranker in a troll tribe or the horde in general, that focus majorly on spiritism is completely obnoxious.

garrosh was war chief he wasn't a shaman, nor was saurfang nor was sylvanas, nor was Eitrigg nor was ect ect ect. there are tons of none shamans priest druids ect that out rank the others with the only real notable example of one being thrall.

shaman's are often out ranked by none shamans this is like basic horde stuff you should know.

the headcanon here is that trolls do not get to learn how to red and write their own language, but we know for fact they don't learn just troll but orcish too when they are younger. the other headcanon you brought is that they only learn how to speak.

again that's not how head canon works your asserting things that are not part of the lore where i'm saying it's up in the air as the lore doesn't say its the case. the two positions are not the same and only one is head canon.

100% of your post are assumptions and moving goalposts to deflect from the main point, thats why you are trying to discuss shadow hunters and witch doctors semantics here

were talking about shadow hunters and which doctors because you brought up that shaman's are the leaders of orcs/cows/trolls and I pointed out that in the case of trolls that's not true which then lead you saying they are the same thing which isn't true. your the one who changed the subject to how all shaman's are which dcotors/shadow hunters all I did was point out that you were wrong.

Your entire base of "why zekhan is an illiterate moron who don't know what erosion is and had to be taught by a blood elf" is completely based around assumption and grasping at straws and you want to say shit about me.

I gave you multiple possibility's on why he could be Illiterate but never said one of them was the reason. You on the other hand have been making stuff up left and right and asserting it as fact like how every one in wow carry's around a journal to write down all there quest or how all PC's are Orphans.

so ya I want to say that shit about you because unlike you I'm not making up abunch of fanfic i'm just giving reasons why things could be the way they are in the lore.

yes, because you are just arguing for the sake of argue, who would know.

or you know I come to the lore form to talk about the lore, but who am I kidding you don't know any thing about the lore so you must be coming here just to argue and projecting it onto me.

[Felrane]

snippy snip

I dont know why you are pushing so hard that a troll that was orphaned in a fantasy game should already know how to read and write. The likelyhood of any of the rabble able to read/write that in Warcraft is extremely low. The Zandalari is a caste society which is likely what all the other Troll Tribes copy to some extent. Zekhan was just a son of a Hunter.... a hunter that was hailed as a Hero because of his Mission into Blackfathom Depths but just a hunter. Zekhan was still an Orphan at a young age in a World always at War. If it wasn't for some luck of him meeting Saurfang on that Wall as well as having hidden potential/something inside as Bwonsamdi mentioned in Shadows Rising. Him learning new things because of the position he is currently in is completely fine and realistic.


Side note-Shamans in the lore dont have to be taught by someone. At times the elements pick the person themselves. For all we know Zekhan is self taught and thats the reason he isn't very good. He also has some Shadowhunter traits seeing how Bwonsamdi took an intrest in him which are all Loa powerbased. Which I suppose is similar to Shamans you ask powerful spirits/Loa to grant you power so that seems fine that he can do both.

[Syegfryed]

You might have noticed that not every shaman/druid is Vanira or zentabra and that there not all on the same ranking as them.

you said they aren't high ranked among trolls, yet, you have a shaman as one of the most prominent darkspear people

I gave you multiple possibility's on why he could be Illiterate but never said one of them was the reason.

phrasing: you only made up headcaon out of what we had, yet, you are saying nonsense about me using headcanon.

so ya I want to say that shit about you because unlike you I'm not making up abunch of fanfic

you literally assumed you made up "possibilities" that is fanfic at the finest buddy, lmao

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I dont know why you are pushing so hard that a troll that was orphaned in a fantasy game should already know how to read and write.

my main problem is how they made the orphan a illiterate who don't even know what erosion is, that had to be taught by a blood elf, why not another troll, or an orc? a tauren? hell even a goblin for money? why a blood elf had to taught a orphan his own language? i mean, they ahd a lot of options, where was Rokhan to teach someone from his own tribe? or Rokhan also, was an orphan who can't write and read?

this bit only make sense if lorthemar was teaching him common, to speak with the alliance, but that is not what is showed in the book.

the horde, by know, should have any system that deals with the youngers, orphans or not, teaching then the basics. especially with someone who is a shaman who should be important among the horde, this isn't like they were 10 or 30 years before, there was a huge advance in technology and life improvement.

making the horde races only learn from their fathers, and without then they had to learn from a superior advanced race like the elves, only pushes the narrative that other horde races are primitive, that the article of wowpedia talks about

[Feanoro]

had to be taught by a blood elf

And there's the crux of the problem, folks. His well known hatred for elves and elf fans. Not the idea of a lowborn troll being illiterate, not the idea of simple folks largely being illiterate (which would be accurate for such societies with no evidence of widespread schooling), but that a "damned elf" was involved. Go ahead, Syegfryed, quit pretending and rage about how the elf looks white, just like WoWhead.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

you said they aren't high ranked among trolls, yet, you have a shaman as one of the most prominent darkspear people

I said which doctors/shadow hunters are ranked above just shamans and the leader of the dark spears being Vol’jin a shadow hunter and then Rokhan after him another shadow hunter show cased that.

phrasing: you only made up headcaon out of what we had, yet, you are saying nonsense about me using headcanon.

I never said any of it was canon I just gave possible explanations based on what canon info we do have.

while you on the other hand said it was canon that every one has a physical journal they write it, that all PC’s were orphans, that trolls learn how to read at a young age yet not toddler age even though there’s no way to know what “young” means in this context, all of which you have asserted as canon lore all of which is not backed up by any lore at all.

[Syegfryed]

And there's the crux of the problem, folks. His well known hatred for elves and elf fans. Not the idea of a lowborn troll being illiterate, not the idea of simple folks largely being illiterate (which would be accurate for such societies with no evidence of widespread schooling), but that a "damned elf" was involved. Go ahead, Syegfryed, quit pretending and rage about how the elf looks white, just like WoWhead.

yeah, a blood elf teaching troll his own language, when he could have learned, from, you know, another troll, don't quite land well. I bet you didn't like night elves being taught the human potential? like a human teaching a ten thousand years elf how to strategize?

But see, there is the rest of the post that you just ignored about how the horde should have ways of dealing with orphans by now, since is something they would have by the dozens, so Zekhan should not be someone who don't even know what erosion was, even by being shaman.

Like some folks said before, imagine a night elf druid now knowing what germination is, and a human explain to then, ayy lmao

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I said which doctors/shadow hunters are ranked above just shamans and the leader of the dark spears being Vol’jin a shadow hunter and then Rokhan after him another shadow hunter show cased that.

which trying to see who have the "big status" was never the point, moving goalposts.

I never said any of it was canon I just gave possible explanations based on what canon info we do have.

by your words, fighting headcanon with headcanon, go ahead.

but the canon is that trolls learn zandalai and orcish at young age, period. Nothing about just reading, no distinctions about who is orphan or not. So anything beyond that is, again, headcaon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

which trying to see who have the "big status" was never the point, moving goalposts.

go back to My other post I said shadow hunters/which doctors out rank normal shamans your the one moving the goal post so that means no shaman can ever make it to a high ranking position.

by your words, fighting headcanon with headcanon, go ahead.

I’m not asserting any thing as canon unlike you so no it’s not fighting head canon with head canon.

but the canon is that trolls learn zandalai and orcish at young age, period. Nothing about just reading, no distinctions about who is orphan or not. So anything beyond that is, again, headcaon

your right the canon is that they learn to speak troll and or Oec at a young age, even the orphans.

Reading and writing how ever is not mentioned at all meaning there is no canon status making it up in the air on rather they learn it or not and any thing beyond that is head canon.

[Syegfryed]

go back to My other post I said shadow hunters/which doctors out rank normal shamans your the one moving the goal post so that means no shaman can ever make it to a high ranking position.

And why did you had the necessity to say that witch doctors and shadow hunters outranked the shamans, if the the point was never about who have the higher rank? but the point that shamans are high ranked among trolls?? is this you confirming an attempt of red hearing?

Cause you can be high ranked in something and not necessary to be the highest one. As example, Vanira and zenthabra are high ranked among the darkspear and they are druid and shaman, not a witch doctor neither a shadow hunter.

your right the canon is that they learn to speak troll and or Oec at a young age, even the orphans.

no where is said they only learn to speak, it is stated they learn the language, everything else is assumption, so lets stick with the canon shall we.

[Feanoro]

yeah, a blood elf teaching troll his own language, when he could have learned, from, you know, another troll

Yes, an educated BElf teaching a lowborn (remember trolls use a caste system) troll reading and writing. Your complaint is misdirected, where's another troll character to do the teaching?

like a human teaching a ten thousand years elf how to strategize?

Someone in his first war "teaching" someone with millennia of military experience? You don't find it absurd?

Your attempt at a comparison fails for that alone. In one case, someone educated teaches. In the other, someone with no knowledge "teaches".

the horde should have ways of dealing with orphans by now

Knowing the Horde, they either abandon them in the wilderness, enslave them as peons, or for the rare lucky one, raise that one to be another screaming lunatic for a future massacre.

[Syegfryed]

Yes, an educated BElf teaching a lowborn (remember trolls use a caste system) troll reading and writing. Your complaint is misdirected, where's another troll character to do the teaching?

if you don't see a problem with this whole bit, that is not my problem.

Someone in his first war "teaching" someone with millennia of military experience? You don't find it absurd?

i do in fact, just like a blood elf teaching troll to another troll.

Knowing the Horde, they either abandon them in the wilderness, enslave them as peons, or for the rare lucky one, raise that one to be another screaming lunatic for a future massacre.

and lets push forward the stereotypes.

[Feanoro]

i do in fact, just like a blood elf teaching troll to another troll.

And the problem is actually that there is no senior troll character to do so. Absent such, it makes sense that an educated being teaches reading and writing.

and lets push forward the stereotypes.

Complain to Blizzard for writing them that way, not me for simply observing how they've been written.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And why did you had the necessity to say that witch doctors and shadow hunters outranked the shamans, if the the point was never about who have the higher rank? but the point that shamans are high ranked among trolls?? is this you confirming an attempt of red hearing?

Cause you can be high ranked in something and not necessary to be the highest one. As example, Vanira and zenthabra are high ranked among the darkspear and they are druid and shaman, not a witch doctor neither a shadow hunter.

the point is about them having a higher rank, that how ever doesn’t mean only people of said rank can ever get a high ranking position.

A Nobel out ranks a citizen a king even more s so but that doesn’t mean a citizen can never get to a high ranking role even above other Nobels.

no where is said they only learn to speak, it is stated they learn the language, everything else is assumption, so lets stick with the canon shall we.

speech is mentioned, that’s it.

[Syegfryed]

And the problem is actually that there is no senior troll character to do so. Absent such, it makes sense that an educated being teaches reading and writing.

yes, Rokhan does not exist, no one else in kalindor could do the job either, only the leader of the blood elves, who, ahve nothing to do, and can totally spare time tot teach troll language to another troll

Also it baffles me how he Lorthemar even know zandali

the point is about them having a higher rank, that how ever doesn’t mean only people of said rank can ever get a high ranking position.

A Nobel out ranks a citizen a king even more s so but that doesn’t mean a citizen can never get to a high ranking role even above other Nobels.

which is again, never the point of the discussion, but you red hearing and focusing on the ranks and who have the higest.

speech is mentioned, that’s it.

yeah, they explained how the speech was, but never said they only speka then how to talk, you are bringing another fallacy called jumping to conclusions.

[Feanoro]

yes, Rokhan does not exist, no one else in kalindor could do the job either, only the leader of the blood elves, who, ahve nothing to do, and can totally spare time tot teach troll language to another troll

Please provide evidence that Rokhan can read and write (or that Blizzard even remembers him).

Also it baffles me how he Lorthemar even know zandali

Pure speculation, but a leader learning a language to work with another leader like Talanji isn't much of a stretch. We could also note the BElves have extensive libraries and archaeological teams.

[Syegfryed]

Please provide evidence that Rokhan can read and write (or that Blizzard even remembers him)..

yep, that is the problem, book makes like any non-elf can't read or write

that is, after all, why the peace treaty can't work, no ne can read the terms.

Pure speculation, but a leader learning a language to work with another leader like Talanji isn't much of a stretch. We could also note the BElves have extensive libraries and archaeological teams.

i could see blood elves look so down on trolls to the point of not wanting to know their language, and only in distaste, learning orcish.

[Venziir]

Please provide evidence that Rokhan can read and write (or that Blizzard even remembers him).

Pure speculation, but a leader learning a language to work with another leader like Talanji isn't much of a stretch. We could also note the BElves have extensive libraries and archaeological teams.

He played a pretty big role in BFA, and a lot of that had him act as an ambassador, delievering messages, spying, writing reports etc.

[Feanoro]

He played a pretty big role in BFA, and a lot of that had him act as an ambassador, delievering messages, spying, writing reports etc.

Thank you, and note that I've been advocating for an educated troll character.

@Syegfryed
Now we finally come to the real problem: Horde fans, yourself included based on everything you've ever written, don't WANT educated Horde races.

- Every single attempt to civilize the Horde has been met with lukewarm responses at best and open hostility to the writers at worst.

- Thrall is sneered at as a green human.

- Tauren are shown to be peaceful and slow to anger, only to have demands "Wtf, why can't they be savage and fierce?

- The Horde sets up trade and diplomatic relations with the Alliance, "Boring!"

- Warmongering meathead Garrosh is introduced, orcs are hurled backwards from shamanistic tribes with a code of honor to brainless killing machines again. Fan response? Overwhelmingly positive. To this day, vocal proponents of Garrosh exist.

- Negotiation is sneered at as weakness.

- Suggestions that the Horde should start agriculture and WORK rather than steal resources is met with fan cries of "The mighty Horde TAKES what it wants!"

- BElves are shown as highly educated arcane scholars, and while popular, when they show reluctance to war, which makes a lot of sense considering that education as well as their canonical low numbers, they're scorned as timid, cowards, letting the mighty Horde fight for them.


All this provides Blizz all the data they need to keep painting the Horde as aggressive lunkheads. Stop demanding ax waving morons and you might actually get intelligence for Horde races. Until then, enjoy what you and a vocal group have demanded for the life of the franchise.

[mysticx]

[Snipped for brevity]
All this provides Blizz all the data they need to keep painting the Horde as aggressive lunkheads. Stop demanding ax waving morons and you might actually get intelligence for Horde races. Until then, enjoy what you and a vocal group have demanded for the life of the franchise.

Summed up: The Horde players get the Horde they deserve.

It's true though, anything other than "RARRR! ME SMASH!" is derided as weak or boring, well, you can have your cake and eat it too, just as soon as a Blood elf explains how. :P

Additionally, this is why the Horde can never win (A much-bemoaned fact), a Horde like that will keep going until the Alliance is destroyed (As Horde fans sit around here and RP-rant all the time), which would be the end of WoW, therefore, the Alliance must always win, because at least they won't kill off the entire Horde.

[Makorus]

Ask some random mid-20s what erosion is, guys.

You'll be surprised.

It's not as obvious or common sense as you all pretend it is.