How should leveling be handled in 10.0?

[Coniferous]

We have to become weaker as we level otherwise gear from the new expansion is pointless.

We didn't have to get weaker in old expansions - we got stronger, it's just that the forces we were fighting also got stronger. That all got broken when they started scaling content to your level.

Yes, secondaries got scaled down, but a level 80 in Sunwell gear was stronger than a level 70 in Sunwell gear in every zone. Now, a level 60 in level 50 gear is straight up weaker than a level 50 in level 50 gear as they go into a level scaled zone.

[Relapses]

We didn't have to get weaker in old expansions - we got stronger, it's just that the forces we were fighting also got stronger. That all got broken when they started scaling content to your level.

Yes, secondaries got scaled down, but a level 80 in Sunwell gear was stronger than a level 70 in Sunwell gear in every zone. Now, a level 60 in level 50 gear is straight up weaker than a level 50 in level 50 gear as they go into a level scaled zone.

It could be argued that Blizzard just got better at scaling content appropriately as the game progressed. Granted, "better" is a pretty subjective statement as I'm sure there are people who preferred the way it used to be. I'm pretty ambivalent because I kind of suck at leveling and try to get through it as fast as possible.

[Amnaught]

Um... people's bank space? Either that or create another gold sink in the form of having to pay 10g to... is it when you add or remove?, whatever... from void storage.

What are you carrying in your 32 slot bags that doesnt leave room for gear sets you can already save and swap in the character screen?

[Coniferous]

It could be argued that Blizzard just got better at scaling content appropriately as the game progressed. Granted, "better" is a pretty subjective statement as I'm sure there are people who preferred the way it used to be. I'm pretty ambivalent because I kind of suck at leveling and try to get through it as fast as possible.

Scaling non linear content is not better in my opinion. If you think about the old expansions, you progressed from the less important ancillary areas first, then gradually got towards the core of the game - icecrown, shadowmoon valley, zones near blackrock mountain, etc. It felt like you were going somewhere. You also had your getting "weaker" masked by the mobs getting tougher every time you went to a new zone, and with level differences between you and the mobs changing the math so it more felt like the challenges were getting stronger.

It's a change that epitomizes the difference between the new and old wow - scaling zones is a system that is nicely balanced and the math all works out and it's flexible, but it ripped all sense of progression out of the leveling process.

[Relapses]

It's a change that epitomizes the difference between the new and old wow - scaling zones is a system that is nicely balanced and the math all works out and it's flexible, but it ripped all sense of progression out of the leveling process.

Understandable -- though I can't say I can relate. For me, leveling has always been an ends to justify the means. Most of this game's core gameplay loop happens at max level so I've very rarely spent a whole lot of time taking in atmosphere of leveling. (Sometimes I don't even bother questing and just dungeon queue the whole thing, even if it's inefficient.) The only time I can remember leveling actually feeling like a meaningful journey was back in TBC the first time I did it. But that was before things like wowhead and all the innumerable guides/information that are available today. That simply isn't possible in 2021.

[CalamityHeart]

Yeah, I would like to need sets from each expansion in order to effectively do that expansion's endgame content. Sounds better than letting the gear be vendor trash once the transmog appearance is collected account-wide. Right?

Er, not really. That sounds... really fucking awful, actually. Terribly inconvenient at best, and flat-out inaccessible at worst. But hopefully I'm misunderstanding what your suggestion entails. Help me out.

Right now, I can go on a whim any time I want and go back and solo raids like Hellfire Citadel, Dragon Soul, Tempest Keep, etc, for the chance of getting a mount or some transmog from there that I want. I can do this with absolutely no issue because the content is old and outdated, I've far outleveled it, and I'm past the point of that old content mattering to me more than the appearances I can get from it.

What you're suggesting sounds to me like, in like two or three expansions' time, if I decide on a whim that I want to go back to Shadowlands and get some mogs or mounts or whatever from those old, outdated raids, I need to hold onto gear from two or three expansions ago. Assuming I'm not just carrying it around in my bags, because why the fuck would I carry around gear in my bags from two expansions ago, if I feel like going into Sepulcher, instead of just going through a couple of portals, flying there, and doing my thing, like I can just do right now with Hellfire Citadel, there are extra hurdles. I need to go to the bank or Void Storage or wherever, fish out another full set of gear to waste a good 14-15(?) bag slots, and put that set on before... what, I look for a group to run Sepulcher, which would be years-old content by that point? (I'm going to assume you're not seriously suggesting this.) Or will this gear, purely by virtue of being Shadowlands gear in the Shadowlands, allow me to solo that old content?

If that's the case, then I have to ask what's the point of the whole system? Why can't it just put the boost or whatever on my gear and let me solo Sepulcher two/three expansions later without these dumb hurdles? What if I wasn't around during Shadowlands? If I wanted access to that old content, would I need to progress through stuff like Nathria and Sanctum first as if it was current?

Even the best possible version of this system of needing old gear to do old content sounds unbearably inconvenient. Assuming that I'm understanding you correctly, who does it serve to make doing old content unbearably inconvenient? I can only imagine something like this making old content even more dead and irrelevant than it is now.

[Coniferous]

Understandable -- though I can't say I can relate. For me, leveling has always been an ends to justify the means. Most of this game's core gameplay loop happens at max level so I've very rarely spent a whole lot of time taking in atmosphere of leveling. (Sometimes I don't even bother questing and just dungeon queue the whole thing, even if it's inefficient.) The only time I can remember leveling actually feeling like a meaningful journey was back in TBC the first time I did it. But that was before things like wowhead and all the innumerable guides/information that are available today. That simply isn't possible in 2021.

Agreed that leveling is fairly irrelevant and meant to be blasted through, but even then it’s a better process when you can like, go to Nagrand in WoD and see that things are hitting harder while also having the story end there with Garrosh’s death.

I think scaling tech was a byproduct of the attempt to make the world relevant through world quests, which are cancer. I’ve yet to see anyone have an idea that actually creates fun world content.

[Swnem]

I don't know why anyone cares about the level number. The game wouldn't change in the least if it were removed. It's just an arbitrary barrier of acess for content.

[Sialina]

Agreed that leveling is fairly irrelevant and meant to be blasted through, but even then it’s a better process when you can like, go to Nagrand in WoD and see that things are hitting harder while also having the story end there with Garrosh’s death.

I think scaling tech was a byproduct of the attempt to make the world relevant through world quests, which are cancer. I’ve yet to see anyone have an idea that actually creates fun world content.

Another thing that got lost with scaling was Orange/Red quests and mobs, though I'm sure this could be added back in if they really wanted to. I know not everyone enjoyed it, but some of my most memorable experiences throughout leveling in earlier WoW was taking on some orange quest with a nice reward. Some "hard" upfront content for a nice reward that would last you a while.

[beratish]

I would squish it myself and offer a threads of fate type leveling off the bat for those not interesting in story

[Rusken]

I'd be very happy if there was no cap increase with the next expansion, especially if they want to continue with the extremely linear fashion of Shadowlands leveling. Leave us at 60 and come up with a new interesting way for us to gain character power as we progress the initial story of a new expansion, even if it's just through having more dungeons and raids available with a steeper gear curve between them.

Leveling is an outdated concept for expansions. Make a world that we want to explore, not one that we're forced through on a one-way track crammed in with 10,000 other people. ESO is my go-to example of this. They haven't increased their level cap in years, but expansions are still exciting to play because the worlds and stories they build are actually worth exploring.

[cparle87]

What are you carrying in your 32 slot bags that doesnt leave room for gear sets you can already save and swap in the character screen?

14 slots per each old expansion doesn't seem excessive to you? I did specify it would get worse with time.

[Amnaught]

14 slots per each old expansion doesn't seem excessive to you? I did specify it would get worse with time.

Crazier Idea: Let us pack custom gear sets into one bag slot, like how Legion Artifacts automatically summon an offhand weapon in the correct slot. Let crafting professions make the item that creates it.

[Jujudrood]

I would prefer they just add 10 more levels.
You need the "leveling-like" process for the MMO; it's room to grow, to restart the power cycle, etc.

The thing that's probably going to suck the hardest, though, is the leveling process, since Covenants, Soulbinds/Conduits, and eventually Legendaries will all be disabled.
I'm guessing Covenant and Soulbind/Counduits get disabled immediately, then Leggos maybe work until 65 (like how Legion->BFA worked).
Like, going from 60 to 61 will come with it secondary reductions (since your gear is the same but now the calculations are slightly more per 1%), but then the 65->66 level will be like a drop off a cliff.

So, whichever way they go, I hope they plan to smooth over the loss of all the borrowed systems, or at the very least, if they don't, at least make it quick to max level so we don't have to feel weak and pathetic for long.

[DechCJC]

Crazier Idea: Let us pack custom gear sets into one bag slot, like how Legion Artifacts automatically summon an offhand weapon in the correct slot. Let crafting professions make the item that creates it.

I would love this.

[Amnaught]

I would prefer they just add 10 more levels.
You need the "leveling-like" process for the MMO; it's room to grow, to restart the power cycle, etc.

The thing that's probably going to suck the hardest, though, is the leveling process, since Covenants, Soulbinds/Conduits, and eventually Legendaries will all be disabled.
I'm guessing Covenant and Soulbind/Counduits get disabled immediately, then Leggos maybe work until 65 (like how Legion->BFA worked).
Like, going from 60 to 61 will come with it secondary reductions (since your gear is the same but now the calculations are slightly more per 1%), but then the 65->66 level will be like a drop off a cliff.

So, whichever way they go, I hope they plan to smooth over the loss of all the borrowed systems, or at the very least, if they don't, at least make it quick to max level so we don't have to feel weak and pathetic for long.

That seems tacky honestly. Going right back to consecutive expansions immediately adding such a tidy way to play any expansion from 10-50? And then years later having to do another level squish becayse we're back at level 120 and only picking our expansion for half of that? Nahhhh.

Squish every expansion to a 10-50 Timewalking Campaign every time a new one releases, maxing out their squished ilvl to current Shadowlands Greens. Let everyone keep their level 60s, but level up the new borrowed-power system and play through the campaign without new character levels, gaining new gear.

[Izalla]

Another thing that got lost with scaling was Orange/Red quests and mobs, though I'm sure this could be added back in if they really wanted to. I know not everyone enjoyed it, but some of my most memorable experiences throughout leveling in earlier WoW was taking on some orange quest with a nice reward. Some "hard" upfront content for a nice reward that would last you a while.

I miss this too, and also have fond memories of tackling a quest that was orange or red and feeling great when I finally overcame it before it turned yellow or green.

[cparle87]

Crazier Idea: Let us pack custom gear sets into one bag slot, like how Legion Artifacts automatically summon an offhand weapon in the correct slot. Let crafting professions make the item that creates it.

You're jumping through a lot of hoops adding new systems at a time when the word "systems" has become akin to a curse word. Making people hold onto old sets just to stay efficient at older content they should be able to steamroll while naked, then changing up the entire functional gear system with additional items people would feel obligated to make.

[Amnaught]

You're jumping through a lot of hoops adding new systems at a time when the word "systems" has become akin to a curse word. Making people hold onto old sets just to stay efficient at older content they should be able to steamroll while naked, then changing up the entire functional gear system with additional items people would feel obligated to make.

Crazier crazier idea: A toy from Timewalking vendors that allows you to set your level to that expansion's level, so long as the character is above that level. Then allow people to use the current equipment UI to use gear from void storage and bank as well as the bags youre carrying. A lot less to mess with, but then you can still steamroll older content, OR choose to run it at the level intended, while easily holding on to old gear

[Jujudrood]

That seems tacky honestly. Going right back to consecutive expansions immediately adding such a tidy way to play any expansion from 10-50? And then years later having to do another level squish becayse we're back at level 120 and only picking our expansion for half of that? Nahhhh.

Squish every expansion to a 10-50 Timewalking Campaign every time a new one releases, maxing out their squished ilvl to current Shadowlands Greens. Let everyone keep their level 60s, but level up the new borrowed-power system and play through the campaign without new character levels, gaining new gear.

It's tacky? It's how everything has always worked.
I'm all for an "alternative" leveling path, if they can come up with one that makes sense.
Like, if we stick to 60 as max, then do we level up reputation as our new "progression path"?
It can't be just "gear alone", because raiders and those who grinded out higher ilevels through M+ or other means would have no use for the questing world, skipping the story, the zones, etc.

With new levels, you have to smooth the transition from xpac to xpac.
SL base ilevel is like what, 180-200ish? I haven't leveled a toon in a good while, so I don't remember, but there's a target from leveling gear in SL that needs to be smooth into the next xpac.
This means fresh toons would do the quests in next xpac and get 200-210ish rewards for the first level, then it would scale up as they level, creating that power progression to max level.
It also means anyone at ilvl 270-280 or whatever the average SL raider/M+ runner turns out to be, they don't use quest rewards for the first like 3-5 levels, instead keeping their raid gear until eventually it gets replaced (some pieces may ride out longer).

Take away levels now and make the progression strictly "quest to gear" (since everyone just stays at 60), and now anyone who ran M+ or raids in, well, any capacity, now has no need for questing gear, thus skips questing/seeing the story and becomes raidloggers from the jump.
One option could be to scale questing gear to current item level (with a max at "X", let's say 300 for argument's sake), but then people with higher item levels only need to quest for just a small portion as their rewards would be much stronger from the jump.
The other option is to make some quests only give to a max item level, but then anyone with an already decent item level won't see any upgrades for a long time, and without the dinging of levels, feel no change at all.

The last thing is the secondary scaling.
The amount it takes per % is based on your level, so if we stick to 60, we just keep our current secondary levels?
Do we just keep gaining more and more until we are all hasted like a woodchipper?
From 60 to 61, for example, you lose secondary effectiveness, thus making gear rewards with higher budgets (due to higher levels) more enticing.
If we increase the budget of gear but not the level/threshold for secondaries, we hit soft caps real fast, so there would need to be a way to handle that as well.

Sure, there's clever ways around all of this, ways to make alternative progression and power paths, handle gearing and secondary budgeting, making the questing world desirable to all forms of players.
But, do we really think after 17 years that Blizzard will reinvent the MMORPG genre with these types of changes?
Nah.
They will give us 10 more levels and send us on our way to 70 and new content, complete with how every other xpac has worked.