Do you think Thrall will keep his promise to Tyrande Whisperwind regarding Sylvanas?

[Super Dickmann]

I still dont get it how you (and i know you have a brain, at the very least) can say that Horde was done dirty when we have an actual dirt pile (mostly ash though) left of the whole night elven race and then Blizz also took a shit on it like so much nasty cat.

Fucken renewal without renewal, vengeance without vengeance, victory without victory and race without... what constitutes an actual race with identity and feel to it.

Not to mention how they slashed at them in Exploring Kalimdor.

I can go even longer into that, since it seems like Blizz baiting and switching with night elves and then cant stop but to pour salt on the wound, even though they HAVE NO REASON TO do so and actually would massively benefit from NOT DOING that. Its like they just want to be as malicious as possible, even if it hurts their current narrative.

Because the tree and the like have consumed exponential amounts of screentime for a story that has not resulted in positive, which is to say interesting, development for a single Horde race in favor of what has now been a four year circlejerk.

There is more content going on and on about the fucking tree within virtually every patch, even up to now in 9.2 than there has been any reference to Lordaeron City for the entire course of these four years. The initial wage of the tree for the night elves was to receive their WC3-era characterization back in 8.1, which remains the best shake the race has gotten in the entire course of the MMO in terms of resembling their RTS selves. By comparison, the orcs, who were the main Kalimdor nemesis of the night elves over resources for the stretch of the game have no exploration and aren't featured at all as regards actually getting what they were after and then fighting what should be the bloodiest front of the war. No consequences for achieving their fix idea of fifteen years in claiming Kalimdor, no focus in the costs on it. Instead, the night elf nemesis is made the Forsaken, who have no role in each other's storyline up to that point, don't even feature in the initial invasion and to who this land makes nothing. Where the orcs are denied a hypothetical story, the Forsaken are denied all story as everything from the loss of their home, their leader and the implications of fighting someone else's fight on the ass end of the world are suborned to the night elf reclamation narrative. To the night elves and their committed fans, the Kalimdor front and the night elves (not) getting revenge are essential. To the Horde, this bullshit has swallowed up all story for its two main races and replaced it first with the self-flagellating circlejerk in BFA and now nothing in SL.

Even better, despite having spent most of one Covenant questline, large parts of 9.1, a big part of a patch where the Forsaken had basically no-story in turn in 8.1, large parts of what are now two books, etc. etc. to talk about the goddamn tree, it's all futile. The steps they've taken are laughably unsatisfying for night elf fans, rightly so, because after showing promise with the WC3 characterization return to more violent night elves they backtrack about it to go on about love and peace. So they attmept to do it, fail because they refuse to engage with the problem, get yelled, and then resolve to put even more content in, further bogging down the storyline with shit that's bound to fail. All the while, the entire second faction of the game first rotates aroun the moral concerns of the other one, then remakes itself in its image while expelling its premier elements, to no avail. Now even its pathetic shell in the form of Memeboi's journal and some throw-away comment by a hasbeen not coming true is seen as yet another of the endless failures to repent for Teldrassil, which will now be used as a springboard for relitigating this bullshit yet again.

At this stage, if the tree were an actual victory of any kind, the top move would be to take it as a polarizing issue and go with it, because at least that results in screentime and conflict and chopping night elves is definitely preferable to doing bitchwork for night elves. Sadly, the thing that you and other posters with similar positions think the Horde got out of it - i.e, to curbstomp the night elves in some kind of humiliation fantasy and then keep at it for the rest of the expansion never actually happens Horde side. It's entirely a mental construct. The Horde of the Alliance questline - a conquering, if very shallow force that goes on a roll (and still loses by the by), doesn't exist in the Horde side questlines which focus on killing each other, and not even for the tree, which'd at least make some sense, but over hurting Jaina's family. The Horde's curbstomp of the Alliance is a myth and the reason A Good War lives up to its name is because it is actually well constructed in the steps Saurfang and Sylvanas take to even get a shot at what is the most powerful group in Kalimdor in the night elves, how much effort is put into it and the viciousness of the night elf reservists fighting back even against serious odds. BFA's best tie-in by far, much closer to what the Horde playerbase wanted out of the expansion and, in what it has in common with the Freudian fantasy of Teldrassil as a curbstomp, also completely absent from the game proper.

The Night Elves paid in Teldrassil with territory, got bad characterization for it and then got the same lecture every other race consumed over its time. The Horde also lost territory by the end, so things even out, but it also lost two characters, its founding institutions and the chance to ever have its own plot, instead circling entropically around this bullshit because of the writers' fear of committing to the only logical consequence of torching the tree, namely, total war in Kalimdor, to an irreconcilable degree and then a focus on Lordaeron and a follow-up on Saurfang's A Good War-era last words on how this won't be forgotten. The Exploring Kalimdor book actually fulfills one of these things by havin the night elves still be at war with the Horde and ignoring the treaty, i.e what anyone with sense would want, but it's still called anti-night elf because a Sadfangist in it expresses the Sadfangist position. So now we'll go back to the drawing board for yet another go at this in 9.2. And in 10.0 someone will still be crowing about how we can't be fighting aliens or chopping each other without every Horde member performing a psalm to remember Teldrassil beforehand.

You're talking about Thrall, who Sylvanas tried to have assassinated, here, correct? Someone trying to kill him and potentially his wife and children without provocation seems pretty good reason to want payback to me, let alone Thrall's commitment after Baine's rescue to having changed since the last cycle of hatred. Add on that Sylvanas enabled Thrall to be kidnapped and tortured for weeks, and I think he has enough "beef" to take her head. It would be refreshing to have him show resolve, particularly after his willingness to abandon everything and be a farmer during Legion.

Big whoop, Sylvanas has tried to kill every person in that room. Hell, she actually did physically, personally kill Calia and as wretched as that bit is, Calia does have far more to do as a nemesis to Sylvanas than does Thrall. Thrall's entire beef with Sylvanas is a dramatically and emotionally void version of his struggle with Garrosh, regarding his responsibility in bringing them into 'his' Horde and how he'd failed to uphold his values instead of stepping back. Except with Garrosh it was wrapped up in orcish identity, their different views of leadership, Thrall's complicated feelings towards Garrosh's father and Garrosh's own problems with his father and his view of Thrall as first a replacement and then a betrayer. Hence why Thrall turns into a manic depressive after killing Garrosh and why he's even a hermit in the first place. It was heavy stuff for the two. With Sylvanas there's jack and shit, and Jack left town. Thrall going after Sylvanas is emotionally void. I said at the start of this thread that any random Night Elf has both more beef with Sylvanas and has more narrative weight to being her killer and this remains true.

Sylvanas obviously isn't going to die, but if she were to die, consider it. What would be more narratively potent? It's not Thrall bashing a second Warchief's head in and giving it to the night elves, who'd be denied the chance to do it themselves. Sylvanas, even after doing some good on a cosmic level to make up for all the bed, being laid low by the people she ignored on the way. The Night elves were a means to an end to reach her goal and when a night elf civilian she never spared a second look at kills her in a moment of weakness, it'd punctuate that people aren't just tools and that her dismissive attitude towards them in her scramble to her goal has consequences. It's the victim that she'd made an anonymous number rather than a person paying back a perpetrator and a repudiation of her worldview where what she does is okay so long as at the end it pays off for her. And that's just a hypothetical, every person in that room has both more reason and more dramatic weight to them being involved than Thrall does.

Finally, let's say we take the entire argument as wrote. Thrall swore on the back of the Horde and if he fails to fulfill a promise he at the time had no means to carry out he's failed the deal and shows the Horde hasn't really learned. Good! That's a much better platform for later stories. Night Elves can be pissed about it and still forego the armistice. Thrall and the Bland Gang can deal with how no apology will make the burning of a city's worth of people okay in the eyes of their surviving kin. And the resentment of this going unresolved will lead to more conflict, which is the whole point of the game. Thrall's promise is filler, but if it isn't, his failure to meet it is good.

[VladlTutushkin]

Because the tree and the like have consumed exponential amounts of screentime for a story that has not resulted in positive, which is to say interesting, development for a single Horde race in favor of what has now been a four year circlejerk.

There is more content going on and on about the fucking tree within virtually every patch, even up to now in 9.2 than there has been any reference to Lordaeron City for the entire course of these four years. The initial wage of the tree for the night elves was to receive their WC3-era characterization back in 8.1, which remains the best shake the race has gotten in the entire course of the MMO in terms of resembling their RTS selves. By comparison, the orcs, who were the main Kalimdor nemesis of the night elves over resources for the stretch of the game have no exploration and aren't featured at all as regards actually getting what they were after and then fighting what should be the bloodiest front of the war. No consequences for achieving their fix idea of fifteen years in claiming Kalimdor, no focus in the costs on it. Instead, the night elf nemesis is made the Forsaken, who have no role in each other's storyline up to that point, don't even feature in the initial invasion and to who this land makes nothing. Where the orcs are denied a hypothetical story, the Forsaken are denied all story as everything from the loss of their home, their leader and the implications of fighting someone else's fight on the ass end of the world are suborned to the night elf reclamation narrative. To the night elves and their committed fans, the Kalimdor front and the night elves (not) getting revenge are essential. To the Horde, this bullshit has swallowed up all story for its two main races and replaced it first with the self-flagellating circlejerk in BFA and now nothing in SL.

Even better, despite having spent most of one Covenant questline, large parts of 9.1, a big part of a patch where the Forsaken had basically no-story in turn in 8.1, large parts of what are now two books, etc. etc. to talk about the goddamn tree, it's all futile. The steps they've taken are laughably unsatisfying for night elf fans, rightly so, because after showing promise with the WC3 characterization return to more violent night elves they backtrack about it to go on about love and peace. So they attmept to do it, fail because they refuse to engage with the problem, get yelled, and then resolve to put even more content in, further bogging down the storyline with shit that's bound to fail. All the while, the entire second faction of the game first rotates aroun the moral concerns of the other one, then remakes itself in its image while expelling its premier elements, to no avail. Now even its pathetic shell in the form of Memeboi's journal and some throw-away comment by a hasbeen not coming true is seen as yet another of the endless failures to repent for Teldrassil, which will now be used as a springboard for relitigating this bullshit yet again.

At this stage, if the tree were an actual victory of any kind, the top move would be to take it as a polarizing issue and go with it, because at least that results in screentime and conflict and chopping night elves is definitely preferable to doing bitchwork for night elves. Sadly, the thing that you and other posters with similar positions think the Horde got out of it - i.e, to curbstomp the night elves in some kind of humiliation fantasy and then keep at it for the rest of the expansion never actually happens Horde side. It's entirely a mental construct. The Horde of the Alliance questline - a conquering, if very shallow force that goes on a roll (and still loses by the by), doesn't exist in the Horde side questlines which focus on killing each other, and not even for the tree, which'd at least make some sense, but over hurting Jaina's family. The Horde's curbstomp of the Alliance is a myth and the reason A Good War lives up to its name is because it is actually well constructed in the steps Saurfang and Sylvanas take to even get a shot at what is the most powerful group in Kalimdor in the night elves, how much effort is put into it and the viciousness of the night elf reservists fighting back even against serious odds. BFA's best tie-in by far, much closer to what the Horde playerbase wanted out of the expansion and, in what it has in common with the Freudian fantasy of Teldrassil as a curbstomp, also completely absent from the game proper.

The Night Elves paid in Teldrassil with territory, got bad characterization for it and then got the same lecture every other race consumed over its time. The Horde also lost territory by the end, so things even out, but it also lost two characters, its founding institutions and the chance to ever have its own plot, instead circling entropically around this bullshit because of the writers' fear of committing to the only logical consequence of torching the tree, namely, total war in Kalimdor, to an irreconcilable degree and then a focus on Lordaeron and a follow-up on Saurfang's A Good War-era last words on how this won't be forgotten. The Exploring Kalimdor book actually fulfills one of these things by havin the night elves still be at war with the Horde and ignoring the treaty, i.e what anyone with sense would want, but it's still called anti-night elf because a Sadfangist in it expresses the Sadfangist position. So now we'll go back to the drawing board for yet another go at this in 9.2. And in 10.0 someone will still be crowing about how we can't be fighting aliens or chopping each other without every Horde member performing a psalm to remember Teldrassil beforehand.



Big whoop, Sylvanas has tried to kill every person in that room. Hell, she actually did physically, personally kill Calia and as wretched as that bit is, Calia does have far more to do as a nemesis to Sylvanas than does Thrall. Thrall's entire beef with Sylvanas is a dramatically and emotionally void version of his struggle with Garrosh, regarding his responsibility in bringing them into 'his' Horde and how he'd failed to uphold his values instead of stepping back. Except with Garrosh it was wrapped up in orcish identity, their different views of leadership, Thrall's complicated feelings towards Garrosh's father and Garrosh's own problems with his father and his view of Thrall as first a replacement and then a betrayer. Hence why Thrall turns into a manic depressive after killing Garrosh and why he's even a hermit in the first place. It was heavy stuff for the two. With Sylvanas there's jack and shit, and Jack left town. Thrall going after Sylvanas is emotionally void. I said at the start of this thread that any random Night Elf has both more beef with Sylvanas and has more narrative weight to being her killer and this remains true.

Sylvanas obviously isn't going to die, but if she were to die, consider it. What would be more narratively potent? It's not Thrall bashing a second Warchief's head in and giving it to the night elves, who'd be denied the chance to do it themselves. Sylvanas, even after doing some good on a cosmic level to make up for all the bed, being laid low by the people she ignored on the way. The Night elves were a means to an end to reach her goal and when a night elf civilian she never spared a second look at kills her in a moment of weakness, it'd punctuate that people aren't just tools and that her dismissive attitude towards them in her scramble to her goal has consequences. It's the victim that she'd made an anonymous number rather than a person paying back a perpetrator and a repudiation of her worldview where what she does is okay so long as at the end it pays off for her. And that's just a hypothetical, every person in that room has both more reason and more dramatic weight to them being involved than Thrall does.

Finally, let's say we take the entire argument as wrote. Thrall swore on the back of the Horde and if he fails to fulfill a promise he at the time had no means to carry out he's failed the deal and shows the Horde hasn't really learned. Good! That's a much better platform for later stories. Night Elves can be pissed about it and still forego the armistice. Thrall and the Bland Gang can deal with how no apology will make the burning of a city's worth of people okay in the eyes of their surviving kin. And the resentment of this going unresolved will lead to more conflict, which is the whole point of the game. Thrall's promise is filler, but if it isn't, his failure to meet it is good.

1) If "best" stories Horde can get are hot and steaming piles of BfA (Or rather the BfA you would enjoy in your mind) aka the "polarizing" content then "Horde was a mistake". Because no game can exist in such state, without one faction literally throwing the towel, cursing and leaving because why even fight if it will always end up in some weird ass defeat-pyrrhic victory nonsense that resolves nothing satisfies no-one and serve no purpose other then producing troll food and more hot takes for edgelords to gnaw on hungrily till next shovel of it arrives.

After BfA i refuse to even entertain the idea of another schadenfreude ridden expansion that will never swing Alliance's way since we both know who devs love the most in the end. They love the Horde but they also love using Alliance for moralizing their audience. Thats why Horde gets six cinematics and who knows how many cutscenes while Alliance gets wall of text and scuffed cutscenes that look like someone's first work in fan animations.

2) There can be no better stories where Horde continues to commit shit like they did in BfA and Cata. Because as i said before it simply will never work, if your end goal is not to entirely rid the game of its last few Alliance fans. You even consider that OTHER players ALSO pay 15 bucks per month? And 30-60 per expansion? If you want that kind of narrative then lets introduce a special subscription - player gets faction locked into Alliance only, but pays almost nothing, while Horde still pays the full price. More conflict in this game never benefitted Alliance. Never. Writers ABHORE writing Alliance as good fighters in a conflict, they LOATHE the faction when it fights back and they HATE to even throw a bone for Alliance.

3) Night elves will join the armistice when Tyrande gets back, since she "chose renewal". I guarantee you that those who will disagree with her will end up in some fodder mission later on, eventually. Or be chastised and shown to be stubborn idiots.

4) Exploring Kalimdor just shows that Darkshore is uninhabitable now, Hyjal is essentially a neutral zone with CC as head honchos and Ashenvale contested despite all. Also, ironically only faction still living on Darkshore are Shatterspear tribe, which goes against all logic. If zone is so devastated that night elves left it, then how Shatterspear "thrives" there? If they got the only good chunk of it, which may be logical, then how night elves allowes them to have it while still being at war with the Horde? Its disgusting and its insulting.

Forsaken got their zones back, Night elves got nothing back. Not Darkshore, since they basically gave up on it and left, not Ashenvale since it is at war and cannot be reinhabited by civilians not even Hyjal since its entirely under CC management.

5) Night elves not agreeing with armistice does NOTHING to "breed resentment". Now, please, can you pay attention to this part because its important. Just saying. That does nothing to breed resentment since all OTHER factions of the Alliance dont care about them (apparently). So Draenei - giving tours to the Horde around their isles. Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes etc - in ignore mode. Even Ancients (at least Ancient of Lore) was giving Horde a story time with a treeman at Darkshore, where the Horde tried to DROWN IT IN BLIGHT before. Can you imagine, being saved from a blight puddle by night elves who likely had their own people melted to pull you out or save you from the axe, only to later forget about it and give Horde campfire stories? Not, you know, tangling them in roots and getting some compost from it. Not telling them to go touch the grass in Mulgore or something. It DOSENT MATTER how mad night elves may get because they are a race betrayed, if humans got mad that would at least mean something, with night elves... It means NOTHING to the Alliance and even to their "natural allies". The factions will not strain in their hug, no matter how many night elves perish in the background.

[Super Dickmann]

@VladlTutushkin

Your first and second points are pointless to address because they're a zero-sum view point which bleeds in the rest of your tract. My post explained why at this stage I believe Teldrassil is dead letter and the net consequences for the Horde for the enjoyment of their faction are more significant. Your starting point is that what the Horde playerbase is interested in and is favourable to it is unacceptable and putting in is itself some kind of Freudian attack on you personally, which humiliaties you so much so you've relitigated this crap for years now. This being the case, there's nothing to debate and no point in engaging with the points in question. Once the exchange becomes zero-sum and for one's preferences to win, others must lose, the only relevant factor is who wins and who loses. Self-evidently, you consider your complaints to have more weight and satisfying your preferences more relevant than satisfying the preferences of the opposition, ditto I care exponentially more about my position than I do about yours and if there's no compromise to be had I'd prefer the story route I'm interested in to take place while the one antithetical to it to be eliminated. Once we've reached that point - and that is the starting point of every post of yours, there's nothing to discuss because obviously we're not going to convince each other of mutually antithetical positions. I give my position here mostly for clarity's sake as obviously we won't sway each other.

To boil down my position to its most blunt baseline, I not only don't care about the Horde repenting for Teldrassil, I am actively opposed to it happening. I not only don't believe that Thrall failing to fulfill his promise is a bad thing I think that the promise itself to begin with is a failing of both Horde and Night Elf writing. Not only should the Horde, for its own playerbase, not have its characters base themselves around killing their own cast in order to repent for a harm done to the other faction, but that they were even able to reach Hyjal to negotiate with Tyrande is an infantilization and insult towards the way the Night Elves were cast. The Night Elves should not be satisfied with a peace offer delivere by the same people who, in their eyes, have preyed upon their land for fifteen years now and have only cost them more and more each time. The manifestation of Elune's vengeance should entertain this even less than Joe Average the Night Elf. What Teldrassil should be is the watershed moment Saurfang discussed at the end of A Good War - a point where the night elves can no longer accept any compromise with the Horde because of the personal and territorial cost in the act and how it was done collectively by the Horde. They should at no point compromise with the Horde or accept the treaty and should instead wage a guerilla war with the backing of a divine avatar as they were implied to do in BFA and are said to be doing in Exploring Kalimdor. The problem with Teldrassil is that though the above is the most logical consequence, the writers fled from the implications of writing in something of that magnitude and in doing so they've neutered both the night elves and the Horde beyond recognition. But whereas the writers have spent time trying and failing to sell this narrative direction to night elf fans due to their collective complaints and have failed because the direction is manifestly shit, they have done the bare minimum of acknowledging it exists and continue to do so in work after work. Meanwhile, the post-Teldrassil Horde story has consisted either of a self-harming circular firing squad of themes, institutions and characters or absolutely nothing. Ergo, the long term harm to the Horde is greater. Accordingly, the good of the narrative is benefitted if Teldrassil is used to enforce two positive elements of the settings, those being more hostile, independent and powerful WC3 night elves and the terrestrial war between political factions and races. In turn, it's bad if it's used for the opposite.

Oh, and even if we're playing a banal point-scoring game, the Forsaken still lost equal to or more amounts of land to the Night Elves. BFA moved Arathi from Horde to Alliance, with the capital lost as well. Then the Exploring EK book turns Hillsbrad and Silverpine from full Horde to contested. Exploring Kalimdor moves Ashenvale back to its contested status quo it's had for most of the game and gives back Darkshore on top of turning Azshara from firm Horde to contested, and contested to a point where the night elves have a good shot at it per the descriptions. Exploring Kalimdor's stance on the night elves as opposing the treaty and doing so forcibly and violently is the best development to have been had in that direction and its only failure is that as a crappy side book it'll have no reflection in game and that it'll obviously be overturned in the steamroller of love and peace that Tyrande will bring back with her.

[VladlTutushkin]

@VladlTutushkin

Your first and second points are pointless to address because they're a zero-sum view point which bleeds in the rest of your tract. My post explained why at this stage I believe Teldrassil is dead letter and the net consequences for the Horde for the enjoyment of their faction are more significant. Your starting point is that what the Horde playerbase is interested in and is favourable to it is unacceptable and putting in is itself some kind of Freudian attack on you personally, which humiliaties you so much so you've relitigated this crap for years now. This being the case, there's nothing to debate and no point in engaging with the points in question. Once the exchange becomes zero-sum and for one's preferences to win, others must lose, the only relevant factor is who wins and who loses. Self-evidently, you consider your complaints to have more weight and satisfying your preferences more relevant than satisfying the preferences of the opposition, ditto I care exponentially more about my position than I do about yours and if there's no compromise to be had I'd prefer the story route I'm interested in to take place while the one antithetical to it to be eliminated. Once we've reached that point - and that is the starting point of every post of yours, there's nothing to discuss because obviously we're not going to convince each other of mutually antithetical positions. I give my position here mostly for clarity's sake as obviously we won't sway each other.

To boil down my position to its most blunt baseline, I not only don't care about the Horde repenting for Teldrassil, I am actively opposed to it happening. I not only don't believe that Thrall failing to fulfill his promise is a bad thing I think that the promise itself to begin with is a failing of both Horde and Night Elf writing. Not only should the Horde, for its own playerbase, not have its characters base themselves around killing their own cast in order to repent for a harm done to the other faction, but that they were even able to reach Hyjal to negotiate with Tyrande is an infantilization and insult towards the way the Night Elves were cast. The Night Elves should not be satisfied with a peace offer delivere by the same people who, in their eyes, have preyed upon their land for fifteen years now and have only cost them more and more each time. The manifestation of Elune's vengeance should entertain this even less than Joe Average the Night Elf. What Teldrassil should be is the watershed moment Saurfang discussed at the end of A Good War - a point where the night elves can no longer accept any compromise with the Horde because of the personal and territorial cost in the act and how it was done collectively by the Horde. They should at no point compromise with the Horde or accept the treaty and should instead wage a guerilla war with the backing of a divine avatar as they were implied to do in BFA and are said to be doing in Exploring Kalimdor. The problem with Teldrassil is that though the above is the most logical consequence, the writers fled from the implications of writing in something of that magnitude and in doing so they've neutered both the night elves and the Horde beyond recognition. But whereas the writers have spent time trying and failing to sell this narrative direction to night elf fans due to their collective complaints and have failed because the direction is manifestly shit, they have done the bare minimum of acknowledging it exists and continue to do so in work after work. Meanwhile, the post-Teldrassil Horde story has consisted either of a self-harming circular firing squad of themes, institutions and characters or absolutely nothing. Ergo, the long term harm to the Horde is greater. Accordingly, the good of the narrative is benefitted if Teldrassil is used to enforce two positive elements of the settings, those being more hostile, independent and powerful WC3 night elves and the terrestrial war between political factions and races. In turn, it's bad if it's used for the opposite.

Oh, and even if we're playing a banal point-scoring game, the Forsaken still lost equal to or more amounts of land to the Night Elves. BFA moved Arathi from Horde to Alliance, with the capital lost as well. Then the Exploring EK book turns Hillsbrad and Silverpine from full Horde to contested. Exploring Kalimdor moves Ashenvale back to its contested status quo it's had for most of the game and gives back Darkshore on top of turning Azshara from firm Horde to contested, and contested to a point where the night elves have a good shot at it per the descriptions. Exploring Kalimdor's stance on the night elves as opposing the treaty and doing so forcibly and violently is the best development to have been had in that direction and its only failure is that as a crappy side book it'll have no reflection in game and that it'll obviously be overturned in the steamroller of love and peace that Tyrande will bring back with her.

Before i try for anything more, i want to point out how you missed the fifth point. Aka the night elves being mad or not agreeing with the rest of Alliance having zero sway on faction, since nobody in Alliance gives a damn about them.

[Super Dickmann]

Before i try for anything more, i want to point out how you missed the fifth point. Aka the night elves being mad or not agreeing with the rest of Alliance having zero sway on faction, since nobody in Alliance gives a damn about them.

On that point I agree entirely, hence the last section, those parts of the book are entirely counterproductive but also were already the case prior to its release. Its stance on the night elves is correct, if ultimately doomed because of the overall writing being in the direction of total alignment into love and peace. The casting of the Night elves as actually being as good as their word and fighting on after refusing to sign the armistice rather than meekly aligning with a teenager is good by itself even if it's extremely brief. The alternative would be to skip even that step and have them already be inviting the catapult crew to shake hands and enjoy tea.

[Romanthony]

No I dont think so because Tyrande gave up on her vengence, on the cutscene, While they said "Sylvanas will pay for her crimes" it will prob jsut be exilie imprisonment, or a self Scrafice

[VladlTutushkin]

On that point I agree entirely, hence the last section, those parts of the book are entirely counterproductive but also were already the case prior to its release. Its stance on the night elves is correct, if ultimately doomed because of the overall writing being in the direction of total alignment into love and peace. The casting of the Night elves as actually being as good as their word and fighting on after refusing to sign the armistice rather than meekly aligning with a teenager is good by itself even if it's extremely brief. The alternative would be to skip even that step and have them already be inviting the catapult crew to shake hands and enjoy tea.

So you see it. Its counter productive to the core. The whole book makes no sense outside of Alliance literally betraying the night elves while they also being betrayed ideologically by Tyrande and Elune both. So they are fighting now, possibly taking more losses which all will be rendered null and void when "choser of renewal" Tyrande comes back and tells them to stand down.

Not to mention how Blizz could have backtracked on Teld since MAJORITY of players were in the camp of "night elf doomers just overplaying the losses". All they had to say was "well, most of them survived akshually" and pat the community on the back for being so smort.

Instead they went and proven doomers right by saying that race is "nearly wiped out".

Literally WHY?! Follow me here - if you trying to make people hold hands and forgive then WHY are you doubling down on the salt in the wound?

[Super Dickmann]

So you see it. Its counter productive to the core. The whole book makes no sense outside of Alliance literally betraying the night elves while they also being betrayed ideologically by Tyrande and Elune both. So they are fighting now, possibly taking more losses which all will be rendered null and void when "choser of renewal" Tyrande comes back and tells them to stand down.

Not to mention how Blizz could have backtracked on Teld since MAJORITY of players were in the camp of "night elf doomers just overplaying the losses". All they had to say was "well, most of them survived akshually" and pat the community on the back for being so smort.

Instead they went and proven doomers right by saying that race is "nearly wiped out".

Literally WHY?! Follow me here - if you trying to make people hold hands and forgive then WHY are you doubling down on the salt in the wound?

The book makes no sense because the armistice/treaty itself makes no sense. It adds nothing on that front, but the night elves are cast in the book as being successful and even threatening areas that the Horde had in the game definitely seized, like Azshara in Cataclysm, or have retaken near entirely after A Good War, like Ashenvale. They have done this on their own through force and in keeping with what the game said about Tyrande refusing to sign the treaty. Will this be made moot after Tyrande shows up and tells them Elune just wanted them to love each other? Yes. But that was already the case prior to the book. The book gives more material for the night elves, both in their prevailing mood being against a white peace and in being successful at it. It has dumb elements, like the Shatterspear, because Golden or Copeland or Danuser or whoever flew over Cataclysm-era Darkshore and saw trolls that were green to their Horde characters and ignored that the night elves had wiped them out twice by now, but in total, it's better than what came before.

Backtracking on Teldrassil would've been an available copout, but it's also the point of the narrative that's been hit the most overall, like I went on about in my post. They bring it up repeatedly and try to put a square peg in a round hole. You and I agree that Teldrassil as presented and the night elves accepting a white peace are mutually exclusive. Blizzard have repeatedly tried and it's always ended like a wet fart precisely because you just can't make those elements gel. As to why they haven't retconned it into being a smaller deal that's one part I really can't figure out. I suspect it's because its place in the mindset of the fanbase is set and it'd be considered a copout, but even that doesn't quite wash.

[VladlTutushkin]

The book makes no sense because the armistice/treaty itself makes no sense. It adds nothing on that front, but the night elves are cast in the book as being successful and even threatening areas that the Horde had in the game definitely seized, like Azshara in Cataclysm, or have retaken near entirely after A Good War, like Ashenvale. They have done this on their own through force and in keeping with what the game said about Tyrande refusing to sign the treaty. Will this be made moot after Tyrande shows up and tells them Elune just wanted them to love each other? Yes. But that was already the case prior to the book. The book gives more material for the night elves, both in their prevailing mood being against a white peace and in being successful at it. It has dumb elements, like the Shatterspear, because Golden or Copeland or Danuser whoever flew over Cataclysm and saw trolls that were green to their Horde characters and ignored that the night elves had wiped them out twice by now, but in total, it's better than what came before.

Backtracking on Teldrassil would've been an available copout, but it's also the point of the narrative that's been hit the most overall, like I went on about in my post. They bring it up repeatedly and try to put a square peg in a round hole. You and I agree that Teldrassil as presented and the night elves accepting a white peace are mutually exclusive. Blizzard have repeatedly tried and it's always ended like a wet fart precisely because you just can't make those elements gel. As to why they haven't retconned it into being a smaller deal that's one part I really can't figure out. I suspect it's because its place in the mindset of the fanbase is set and it'd be considered a copout, but even that doesn't quite wash.

The part about playerbase making their mind is not true. Majority of players, even more then a half of night elf fans theorized how majority of Teldrassil's denizens escaped. Or how there shouldnt be that many of them on a tree to begin with. Dozens of copout theories were created and Blizz just trampled all over them with one dumbass statement instead of using that wave and riding it to salvation.

Instead they validated worst of night elf doomers represented by the likes of Ethriel, Призраклеса and maybe me.

But there is also another part to it. We all saw how a LOT of horde players were not at all into what BfA peddled. Yeah many still loved the concept of being remorseless war criminals, but a lot of people dont like it. And its not just honor-bro type like some orc players who follow Saurfang. Its basically anybody who finds the racial fantasy of a sneering executioner, pushing a gun to a head of a crying victim to be... disturbing or just unfun and too cliche.

After Teld they got kinda crushed into either leaving the faction, and i should add - they were witch-hunted by jubilant pro-genociders and insulted, harassed and generally told that they are not welcome in the Horde. Or they could join Saurfang later on, which some found either not enough of a rise up or too much, which is perfectly fine.

So, those people now have no good way to play the Horde, since they grew tired of antagonizing the Alliance, which feels like torturing a defenseless victim by now, which just wants to be left alone. And yet they also find Blizz lukewarm copout to be not enough, aka leaving Sylvanas off the hook and so on.

[Super Dickmann]

The part about playerbase making their mind is not true. Majority of players, even more then a half of night elf fans theorized how majority of Teldrassil's denizens escaped. Or how there shouldnt be that many of them on a tree to begin with. Dozens of copout theories were created and Blizz just trampled all over them with one dumbass statement instead of using that wave and riding it to salvation.

Instead they validated worst of night elf doomers represented by the likes of Ethriel, Призраклеса and maybe me.

I'll freely admit I'd not seen that particular cope around much as it's not really present much on MMO-Champion and I only glance over other forums since MMO-Champ has better moderation, allows more long-form responses and swearing, the meat and potatoes of any discussion. I think it's piss-weak and would only diminish the dramatic power of the scene. Teldrassil is more worthwhile as an actual tragedy than it is as something that's not a big deal. All its narrative power comes from the scale. It's why it would have been and briefly was the impetus to revert the night elves to their best characterization, that being the WC3 one. It's a game changer that they could've rode to a lot of drama.

Of course back in reality it wasn't that, it was instead a narrative black hole because of the writers' unwillingness to commit. So why they didn't retcon it is beyond me. If Teldrassil were turned from a destruction of a society to the killing of a small section of escapees it'd be narratively cheap, but the writers are hacks who don't mind narrative shortcuts at all other times. Making Teldrassil a smaller deal would be poison to the kind of narrative re: the factions people with my preferences want and the kind of night elf characterization I think most of their fans want, but we obviously aren't the target audience. The target audience is Twitter peacenik fans and all plot points, from the BFA white peace to telling us Sylvanas is a good girl actually would work better if Teldrassil were downplayed. That they instead have stuck to their guns on that very specific point without changing the end point has been well received by pretty much no one. People who wanted Teldrassil's consequences to stick and those who wanted world peace are both unsatisfied.

As it regards Horde-side fans, at least where MMO-champ and the official US forums, which are the main places I read during BFA, most of the hostility was on the part of noblesavage posters, whereas the actual support was regarding Sylvanas and against Mists 2.0. The view of said posters and yours were closer than they were to he anti-Mists 2.0 side, in that they both considered the War of Thorns to be some curbstomp and going after victims, rather than what the game actually presented Horde-side. Those people were willing to burn the house down so long as it got them what they wanted. I have to say, watching them realize what they'd actually been cheering for when the dust cleared and now the impotent crying as they complain about the left-over husk of this faction being represented by memes who sit around all expansion and do nothing has been a great bit of Schadenfreude. One of the positives to SL has been that most of the people who were cheering atrocious writing and retcons when it came for the non-noblesavage parts of the Horde in the belief it'd hit the points they were after at the end had the rug pulled out from them by other atrocious writing and have been raging since. Them and the guys saying that "No, really, the Horde and Alliance are done, there are Bigger Threats (TM)" and crowing on about cosmic plots only to complain about how they've nothing to do with actual player identification like they've been told for all of BFA suddenly realized what the bill of goods was actually for. Absolutely delectable.

[VladlTutushkin]

I'll freely admit I'd not seen that particular cope around much as it's not really present much on MMO-Champion and I only glance over other forums since MMO-Champ has better moderation, allows more long-form responses and swearing, the meat and potatoes of any discussion. I think it's piss-weak and would only diminish the dramatic power of the scene. Teldrassil is more worthwhile as an actual tragedy than it is as something that's not a big deal. All its narrative power comes from the scale. It's why it would have been and briefly was the impetus to revert the night elves to their best characterization, that being the WC3 one. It's a game changer that they could've rode to a lot of drama.

Of course back in reality it wasn't that, it was instead a narrative black hole because of the writers' unwillingness to commit. So why they didn't retcon it is beyond me. If Teldrassil were turned from a destruction of a society to the killing of a small section of escapees it'd be narratively cheap, but the writers are hacks who don't mind narrative shortcuts at all other times. Making Teldrassil a smaller deal would be poison to the kind of narrative re: the factions people with my preferences want and the kind of night elf characterization I think most of their fans want, but we obviously aren't the target audience. The target audience is Twitter peacenik fans and all plot points, from the BFA white peace to telling us Sylvanas is a good girl actually would work better if Teldrassil were downplayed. That they instead have stuck to their guns on that very specific point without changing the end point has been well received by pretty much no one. People who wanted Teldrassil's consequences to stick and those who wanted world peace are both unsatisfied.

As it regards Horde-side fans, at least where MMO-champ and the official US forums, which are the main places I read during BFA, most of the hostility was on the part of noblesavage posters, whereas the actual support was regarding Sylvanas and against Mists 2.0. The view of said posters and yours were closer than they were to he anti-Mists 2.0 side, in that they both considered the War of Thorns to be some curbstomp and going after victims, rather than what the game actually presented Horde-side. Those people were willing to burn the house down so long as it got them what they wanted. I have to say, watching them realize what they'd actually been cheering for when the dust cleared and now the impotent crying as they complain about the left-over husk of this faction being represented by memes who sit around all expansion and do nothing has been a great bit of Schadenfreude.

I would love the Horde heroes to do all the work as long as Alliance dosent gets its balls crushed every expansion. You can go tackle any neutral threat you like, see how it does you any good.

Plus people who were pro peace really dont give a fuck that Baine sits down or Thrall has less presence, its not something to die for and considering how they became disenfranchised with the Horde due to Horde's other half, that was fast to loathe and curse their own "comrades" its unsurprising how most of those would just shrug and ignore.

And yes, Teld was a massive beatdown on the weaklings. Gamewise. And game rules, book drools, for obvious reasons. Its basically the "French paradox" aka the meme or assumption that becomes so overly prevalent that it replaces the fact, due to people being exposed to only the assumption and fact being buried deep down in the dusty book, which also was not as "equal" as you think. It was mostly just Saurfang bellyaching and Sylvanas snarking, which in my opinion was waste of paper and ink. Yeah they gave night elves there about 20% more power then they were shown in game, but its still 20% extra of a very small number.

Now further about the issue - even on forums people talking about the Exploring Kalimdor shows that nothing changed in the trend - due to lack of any good representation in the game, night elves are essentially became Italy/France of WoW. It dosent matter what they supposed to be, all that matters that "purple elf cry lots, always die".

Until the game does an effort to show them as anything more then "have mercy" (btw Blizz officially assigned Alliance war cry) nobody will take them seriously, even their fans. And with Tyrande choosing renewal i dont see them getting a good show of martial prowess in game.

[Super Dickmann]

I would love the Horde heroes to do all the work as long as Alliance dosent gets its balls crushed every expansion. You can go tackle any neutral threat you like, see how it does you any good.

Plus people who were pro peace really dont give a fuck that Baine sits down or Thrall has less presence, its not something to die for and considering how they became disenfranchised with the Horde due to Horde's other half, that was fast to loathe and curse their own "comrades" its unsurprising how most of those would just shrug and ignore.

Of course, which is why their opinion on this topic doesn't matter, as most are Alliance fans. It's not about the presence of noblesavagery, it's about the absence of what has been the meat of the Horde for most of the entire franchise's lifespan. It's the same as people who start out defending Calia by mentioning that they didn't care about the Forsaken prior to her. They're not part of the demographic and so their stance on the material is like a vegetarian discussing how he'd best like his meat prepared. He'll never eat it so who cares? You'll notice that as far as forums are concerned even the most visceral of the anti-Sylvanas Horde posters have few good words to say about Horde representation in expansions about Wrath and Lich King. Hence why you'll see plenty of Horde posters shitting on Sylvanas in this very topic you'll see posters like bloodkin and Syeg shitting on the current state of the Horde. They're actually invested in the faction. Those who aren't obviously don't care. They can focus on seething about Sylvanas instead.

And yes, Teld was a massive beatdown on the weaklings. Gamewise. And game rules, book drools, for obvious reasons. Its basically the "French paradox" aka the meme or assumption that becomes so overly prevalent that it replaces the fact, due to people being exposed to only the assumption and fact being buried deep down in the dusty book, which also was not as "equal" as you think. It was mostly just Saurfang bellyaching and Sylvanas snarking, which in my opinion was waste of paper and ink. Yeah they gave night elves there about 20% more power then they were shown in game, but its still 20% extra of a very small number.

Now further about the issue - even on forums people talking about the Exploring Kalimdor shows that nothing changed in the trend - due to lack of any good representation in the game, night elves are essentially became Italy/France of WoW. It dosent matter what they supposed to be, all that matters that "purple elf cry lots, always die".

Until the game does an effort to show them as anything more then "have mercy" (btw Blizz officially assigned Alliance war cry) nobody will take them seriously, even their fans. And with Tyrande choosing renewal i dont see them getting a good show of martial prowess in game.

This is what I referenced earlier in the thread, they've tried to get it across for four years now and featured it endlessly, trying to sell night elf fans on this direction. All failed, all pointless, because it's not rooted in anything actually in the narrative they depicted but in the collective mythmaking around it that's come past that point. Even the game argument is fiction, in the actual Horde campaign, you spend most of your time attacking your own dudes for not being sufficiently loyal Anduinists, but this has not changed its impression in the minds of most of those complaining who didn't read the novella, didn't play the Horde war campaign and wouldn't care even if they did due to partisanship. As such, bothering with it any further at the expense of the faction that was worn down to the bones to enable will also fail and is thus also pointless, hence my stance on this topic. Fuck it and carry on.

[VladlTutushkin]

Of course, which is why their opinion on this topic doesn't matter, as most are Alliance fans. It's not about the presence of noblesavagery, it's about the absence of what has been the meat of the Horde for most of the entire franchise's lifespan. It's the same as people who start out defending Calia by mentioning that they didn't care about the Forsaken prior to her. They're not part of the demographic and so their stance on the material is like a vegetarian discussing how he'd best like his meat prepared. He'll never eat it so who cares? You'll notice that as far as forums are concerned even the most visceral of the anti-Sylvanas Horde posters have few good words to say about Horde representation in expansions about Wrath and Lich King. Hence why you'll see plenty of Horde posters shitting on Sylvanas in this very topic you'll see posters like bloodkin and Syeg shitting on the current state of the Horde. They're actually invested in the faction. Those who aren't obviously don't care. They can focus on seething about Sylvanas instead.



This is what I referenced earlier in the thread, they've tried to get it across for four years now and featured it endlessly, trying to sell night elf fans on this direction. All failed, all pointless, because it's not rooted in anything actually in the narrative they depicted but in the collective mythmaking around it that's come past that point. Even the game argument is fiction, in the actual Horde campaign, you spend most of your time attacking your own dudes for not being sufficiently loyal Anduinists, but this has not changed its impression in the minds of most of those complaining who didn't read the novella, didn't play the Horde war campaign and wouldn't care even if they did due to partisanship. As such, bothering with it any further at the expense of the faction that was worn down to the bones to enable will also fail and is thus also pointless, hence my stance on this topic. Fuck it and carry on.

Well, if i was petty i could point out that "new" Sylvanas would likely be appalled and aghast at what her fans are. And since their souls were in place she would find no excuse for them other then being too stupid, vile or short sighted to follow her.

In any case.

Its not "myth making" its that they failed to show night elves as ANYTHING but victims. They failed , failed and failed and now you saying that fans are to blame that we are not buying the "but you totes stronk though! For realzies!".

Where? WHERE IS IT?! Aside from a few murky passages from Elegy or whatever book it was? Game? Curbstomp. Later BfA campaign? Curbstomp and propping of a Rambo meme over the actual lore character of night elves. Darkshore warfront? An inconclusive wash that ended up in nothing since NOBODY CAN LIVE THERE ANYWAY. Only "badass" night elves were unironically the undead ones!

Fucken hell, this is like searching for a golden needle in a pile of shit.

Yeah, maybe its there, but its literally impossible to find and not worth the effort. If you squint hard enough you can imagine or see anything, really.

Also if you subscribe to "its fans fault they dont see night elves as strong" or "its their fault that they see fighting them as curbstomp"... Then its also your fault, as a fan, that you dont see absolute perfect fit Calia is to the Horde.

Because reasons for her being perfect fit are there, in the books! Just have to look reeeeal close! How do you like that, hm?

Wow. Almost like all your arguments can be turned around at you. Almost like you are not as galaxy brained as you think and others are just as inteligent.

[Super Dickmann]

Also if you subscribe to "its fans fault they dont see night elves as strong" or "its their fault that they see fighting them as curbstomp"... Then its also your fault, as a fan, that you dont see absolute perfect fit Calia is to the Horde.

Because reasons for her being perfect fit are there, in the books! Just have to look reeeeal close! How do you like that, hm?

Wow. Almost like all your arguments can be turned around at you. Almost like you are not as galaxy brained as you think and others are just as inteligent.

Per A Good War attacking the Night Elves were at a 7-to-1 disadvantage and still inflicted more casualties than they took and this was premised upon most of their senior forces being on another front. The entire first half of the book is premised upon Saurfang and Sylvanas engineering a winnable scenario due to the night elves' inherent advantage. It's elementary to find by reading either of the two novella, which are free. But, hell, don't even do that, there's no need to even play the Horde war campaign if you can't be arsed. Just boot up wowpedia and check the post-8.0 quests and see how many either A) result in failure B) fixate upon the Horde circular firing squad. Hint: It's all of them short of the one where you help Gallywix fight Gelbin in a giant robot and even he gets booted from the faction five minutes later.

It is Blizzard's fault that they've produced endless follow-ups to Teldrassil that all fail to address fan concerns or preferences, but it's also entirely obvious that they simply can't. The direction is shit and that section is unpleasable. You use the Calia reference as a gotcha, and the point is naff anyway. Method is not substance. My argument premised on it being in the books is correct because textually the material is there and I can refer to it. The pro-Calia position is wrong because the backing is not there. I'm not referring to the abstract Volksgeist assmad about Teldrassil or satisfied that the present Horde are a cavalcade of eunuchs, but about discrepancies between how things are depicted in one instance and in all others prior.

But nevermind that, it's actually an appropriate comparison in one regard. They tried increasingly hamhanded ways to bring her in and were always told to fuck off so they kept slowrolling her appearance. She will still eventually take over the remains of the Forsaken that are basically dead with or without her presence due to the combination of BTS and BFA, barring some major writing change, that's a given, but she'll not have wasted narrative screentime trying to achieve the impossible. Much like there's no way to sell world peace after Teldrassil to the target audience of night elves there's no way to sell Calia to her target audience. The difference is the Teldrassil peacenik nonsense sucks up narrative oxygen on both factions and from all characters involved. Calia has hovered over the chair she'll be air-dropped into at some stage for a while without wasting my time, with the only violation being her ten or so lines in all of SL that pale in comparison to the night elf-adjacent content I've had to do and that has been available over the course of that time as a Horde player. It's plainly clear which transition Blizzard is more invested and wishes to sell you on and which race and faction they consider worthy of narrative attention to placate them after severe damage has been done. You can draw your own conclusions of whether you'd like our poison instead or you'd prefer to keep yours.

[VladlTutushkin]

Per A Good War attacking the Night Elves were at a 7-to-1 disadvantage and still inflicted more casualties than they took and this was premised upon most of their senior forces being on another front. The entire first half of the book is premised upon Saurfang and Sylvanas engineering a winnable scenario due to the night elves' inherent advantage. It's elementary to find by reading either of the two novella, which are free. But, hell, don't even do that, there's no need to even play the Horde war campaign if you can't be arsed. Just boot up wowpedia and check the post-8.0 quests and see how many either A) result in failure B) fixate upon the Horde circular firing squad. Hint: It's all of them short of the one where you help Gallywix fight Gelbin in a giant robot and even he gets booted from the faction five minutes later.

It is Blizzard's fault that they've produced endless follow-ups to Teldrassil that all fail to address fan concerns or preferences, but it's also entirely obvious that they simply can't. The direction is shit and that section is unpleasable. You use the Calia reference as a gotcha, and the point is naff anyway. Method is not substance. My argument premised on it being in the books is correct because textually the material is there and I can refer to it. The pro-Calia position is wrong because the backing is not there. I'm not referring to the abstract Volksgeist assmad about Teldrassil or satisfied that the present Horde are a cavalcade of eunuchs, but about discrepancies between how things are depicted in one instance and in all others prior.

But nevermind that, it's actually an appropriate comparison in one regard. They tried increasingly hamhanded ways to bring her in and were always told to fuck off so they kept slowrolling her appearance. She will still eventually take over the remains of the Forsaken that are basically dead with or without her presence due to the combination of BTS and BFA, barring some major writing change, that's a given, but she'll not have wasted narrative screentime trying to achieve the impossible. Much like there's no way to sell world peace after Teldrassil to the target audience of night elves there's no way to sell Calia to her target audience. The difference is the Teldrassil peacenik nonsense sucks up narrative oxygen on both factions and from all characters involved. Calia has hovered over the chair she'll be air-dropped into at some stage for a while without wasting my time, with the only violation being her ten or so lines in all of SL that pale in comparison to the night elf-adjacent content I've had to do and that has been available over the course of that time as a Horde player. It's plainly clear which transition Blizzard is more invested and wishes to sell you on and which race and faction they consider worthy of narrative attention to placate them after severe damage has been done. You can draw your own conclusions of whether you'd like our poison instead or you'd prefer to keep yours.

Forsaken were not shown as perpetual losers since Cata. As a matter of fact in Cata their status as "unstoppable death army" was solidified in stone, while at the same time night elves were beaten down and shown as imbeciles and weaklings on their own turf, needing Varian's help to save them or otherwise they would have being genocided all the way back then.

Also edgelords who love BfA idea (not execution, idea) are as much of a waste of perfectly good air (if not more) as a peacenick.

Actually... why "peacenick" even? A lot of those people were not for hugging it out. They were for war that was kept between warriors, and where civilians wouldnt be grotesquely strung around by their own guts. Basically a cold war, something of the similar magnitude. Not the war crime BfA fiesta. And you dont have to be a tree hugger to abhor strangling women or mutilating farmers and so on. The fact forsaken were offered a narrative tit for so long that they entirely disregard other parts of the Horde as "meh, not real fans" is a mighty cocksuckery on YOUR part.

I dont like anduinists, but i dont fucken tell them that they are not real fans and should fuck off. I only ask that they at least throw their lot with the Alliance if there is no choice but to fight. But with the Horde there is ALWAYS a choice. And you ALWAYS cast those who dosent like the "blood for the blood god" levels of gore as "weak and not real Horde". Its so lame, it just makes me low key irked.

What they could have easily done is either base Warfront in Ashenvale, or make Tyrande clearly appear on Dakrshore and curb some horde troops, not necessarily even named heroes, but have us see more of her "badass" power. Not fucken freezing two idiots who later escape. Have the night elves win decisively and keep the zone, instead of opting for "oh they KINDA won, but not ACTUALLY, since Horde just left after turning Darkshore into uninhabitable WASTELAND".

Which again proven all doomers right since we all said that Dakrshore would become uninhabitable and people told us that we were dooming too hard.

And also i dont choose any poisons, and dont agree to disagree, i am russian, its just not what we do. We find hills and we die on them, victims of our struggle... or actually stabbing in the kitchen when two stubborn people cant agree on anything.

[Synvanas]

Have the night elves win decisively and keep the zone, instead of opting for "oh they KINDA won, but not ACTUALLY, since Horde just left after turning Darkshore into uninhabitable WASTELAND".

Is this really that much of a problem....the Night Elves still own Darkshore and have the zone under their control...even if it's an abandoned wasteland and there's a Troll tribe living in it once again, the territory is still Kaldorei and that's what is important. And now the Shatterspear know very well it's not convenient to them to join the Horde war efforts in the future against the Night Elves so it's all good. In time, Night Elves civilians might be able to return.

It's basically in the same condition of the Ghostlands, it's mostly plagued, desert and abandoned but the Blood Elves officially still own the zone and it's still part of Quel'thalas, despite it's ruined and there is other group living in it like the Amani.

[Mehrunes]

I still dont get it how you (and i know you have a brain, at the very least) can say that Horde was done dirty when we have an actual dirt pile (mostly ash though) left of the whole night elven race and then Blizz also took a shit on it like so much nasty cat.

The Horde being done dirty isn't mutually exclusive with Night Elves being thrown under the bus as well.

You're talking about Thrall, who Sylvanas tried to have assassinated, here, correct? Someone trying to kill him and potentially his wife and children without provocation seems pretty good reason to want payback to me, let alone Thrall's commitment after Baine's rescue to having changed since the last cycle of hatred. Add on that Sylvanas enabled Thrall to be kidnapped and tortured for weeks, and I think he has enough "beef" to take her head. It would be refreshing to have him show resolve, particularly after his willingness to abandon everything and be a farmer during Legion.

Yet there's still a long, long line of people in front of him with much larger grievances. It's as if they focused WotLK on Thrall's grievances with the Lich King because the Lich King tried to kill him as well during the Scourge attack on Orgrimmar instead of Sylvanas, whose entire story revolved around vengeance against Arthas. Oh, wait, they still replaced Sylvanas, just with the one Paladin that wasn't even around for W3 or TFT.

[Super Dickmann]

Forsaken were not shown as perpetual losers since Cata. As a matter of fact in Cata their status as "unstoppable death army" was solidified in stone, while at the same time night elves were beaten down and shown as imbeciles and weaklings on their own turf, needing Varian's help to save them or otherwise they would have being genocided all the way back then.

While I'd quibble regarding the Forsaken portrayal I don't think there's much doubt that the core of the Forsaken playerbase were happy with Cataclysm, myself included, since I think it's the peak of their content, whereas night elf fans rightly weren't happy about their shake in Cataclysm. With Cataclysm, like we've discussed before I actually agree with much of your point about in-game presentation being the issue. The Krom'gar campaign in Stonetalon for the Horde is one continuous narrative ending with a bombing, better getting across BFA's message in the span of one zone than the expansion does. It's probably Afrasiabi's best work in the game as the main writer for that zone and he does a lot to sell both the strength of the Horde and how being morally vacuous is a weakness, not a strength, costing you allies and resulting in wasting your best weapon on a civilian target to be a dick.

This point is meant to be then reinforced by the Alliance which ultimately sees you rolling back the Horde's gains and the night elves being in a strong position against them, taking place afterwards chronologically. How many remember that part though? I'd bet even you as a major night elf player don't remember that, because it's communicated in boring and unimpactful side quests. Even I didn't know it until someone tipped me off here on the forums a couple years back because it was that absent from any lore. See the same re: the Alliance victory in the Sunken Temple. Part of what made the Forsaken story work is how much it centered the perspective as being the protagonist of their own story, with internal heroes and villains involved, which is why it's memorable to its fanbases. I haven't played many of the Alliance Cataclysm zones, but given how few reference the characters there compared to how much characters like Belmont or Lydon still get brought up, I think I can tell which story stuck the landing better.

Also edgelords who love BfA idea (not execution, idea) are as much of a waste of perfectly good air (if not more) as a peacenick.

Actually... why "peacenick" even? A lot of those people were not for hugging it out. They were for war that was kept between warriors, and where civilians wouldnt be grotesquely strung around by their own guts. Basically a cold war, something of the similar magnitude. Not the war crime BfA fiesta. And you dont have to be a tree hugger to abhor strangling women or mutilating farmers and so on. The fact forsaken were offered a narrative tit for so long that they entirely disregard other parts of the Horde as "meh, not real fans" is a mighty cocksuckery on YOUR part.

I dont like anduinists, but i dont fucken tell them that they are not real fans and should fuck off. I only ask that they at least throw their lot with the Alliance if there is no choice but to fight. But with the Horde there is ALWAYS a choice. And you ALWAYS cast those who dosent like the "blood for the blood god" levels of gore as "weak and not real Horde". Its so lame, it just makes me low key irked.

I probably wouldn't accuse any other poster of being an oxygen thief. The farthest I go is to say that a take is wrong and harmful to the narrative and they're fucking it up by pushing it or, as earlier in this topic, that if push came to shove, I'd pick my preferences over theirs if one had to win out. That said, I think the main reason why we don't get anywhere, fun as the chat is, is the core mismanagement of what people wanted from the narrative. While there are outright peaceniks who were pushing hard for BFA to abolish the factions to focus on going to space, what most who liked BFA as a concept wanted was a war where both sides were the protagonists of their own story. A narrative that was sold on you liking your faction shouldn't reprimand you for wanting the fight you were sold. I think one of the reasons why the way Horde players and Alliance players come out of their respective BFA narratives feeling we got gypped is because in neither side are you the protagonist. The Alliance side has Anduin tell you you're a bad guy for wanting to win and that killing Zandalari combatants is like another Killing Fields, while the Horde story I've already lambasted enough on this thread. I don't think the issues are equal, I've made that case enough, but at the root they have the same problem. The thing you talk about how you 'kinda' win is at the heart of it.

As for who's a true Scotsman, it's why I specifically attack people who don't mind Thrall and Baine's non-roles or the exclusion of Horde races from neutral expansions. There's a lot of people who got into the Horde because of WC3 and were into the whole noblesavage business. I've made my thoughts on that abundantly clear and think that that narrow pigeonhole is narratively barren and spent endless posts going on why, but these people really do care about that version of the Horde and complain in that vein. Ditto you have WC2/Cata Orc fans and WC3 Orc fans, but both agree on the baselines. They were both sold something and expect it to be delivered. This is not the case with the Forsaken. There is no genuine pro-Calia constituency re: Forsaken. I've yet to argue with a single poster here with those views who didn't main Alliance or preface it with sayign they never liked the race as it was for 99% of its time in the franchise and re: the official forums you don't even need to go that far, you can just see the flags involved.

And also i dont choose any poisons, and dont agree to disagree, i am russian, its just not what we do. We find hills and we die on them, victims of our struggle... or actually stabbing in the kitchen when two stubborn people cant agree on anything.

It checks out. Looking back on my posts here I've apparently spent too much time in Germany to do anything but take the maximalist position and then drag out an argument about it for several paragraphs too many.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Because I think it's the correct answer? I wasn't really sure how this question was germane to the rest of what was being discussed (and now doubly unsure why you've underlined it), but I figured "hey, why not provide a semblance of an answer."

Then why not ignore it? It was clearly a metaphor; What happens when two entities become one, and one of those entities has baggage? Does the "new" combined entity carry that baggage? What you said made no sense at all, and was a deflection to that.

[Aucald]

Then why not ignore it? It was clearly a metaphor; What happens when two entities become one, and one of those entities has baggage? Does the "new" combined entity carry that baggage? What you said made no sense at all, and was a deflection to that.

That's the open question, though. Does the "new" combined entity carry that baggage, or not? It's an open-ended Ship of Theseus type of thought exercise. When an outside force essentially transfigures a thing, how much of its previous baggage does it still own? All of it, some of it, any of it? Wasn't sure how the Disney/Blizzard thing was quite germane to that, though - since the answer there would depend on how much latitude Disney gave Blizzard or whatever. Not quite a 1:1 comparison.