Hard core raiders don't like the answer: but Blizzard is right about Power Infusion.

[Al Gorefiend]

It doesn't matter. Healers fight over HPS rankings too. If your guild knows how to read logs it's not a problem; they'll know you gave it away to help them; if they don't: it's their fault.

Your spicy take is that deep down, everyone is secretly in competition amongst one another to be the top of the meters, rather than work together to complete the content. Therefore, abilities like Power Infusion, if casted on oneself is symbolically a show of one being a selfish asshole.

Here's my spicy take: Once again you DPSers prove you need to be babysat.

[Davryn]

I suspect that the "social tension" issue affects a really small % of players. Should an entire category of class mechanics (single target external DPS buffs) be removed simply because of this small vocal minority?

Who benefits from these mechanics? It's a type of mechanic that promotes player interaction, which is generally something that the game is lacking these days. Among the casual player base, I can imagine there are some who enjoy the fact that they can directly help their DPS buddy, or even a random stranger in a dungeon. It's much more personal and deliberate than a raid-wide buff, and not every action has to boost your own personal score to be meaningful. A lot of the posters here won't get that because they are "veterans" who no longer enjoy the simple elements of the game, but instead focus heavily on proving their technical mastery, and anything that gets in the way of that is bad design.

Would the game really become better if devs designed the game with parsing in mind? That would be like designing a game with speed runners in mind. If those players figure out a way to make it work, fine. But they are a minority and the experience of the rest of the players shouldn't be diminished for the sake of the former.

[Candlewick]

I suspect that the "social tension" issue affects a really small % of players. Should an entire category of class mechanics (single target external DPS buffs) be removed simply because of this small vocal minority?

Who benefits from these mechanics? It's a type of mechanic that promotes player interaction, which is generally something that the game is lacking these days. Among the casual player base, I can imagine there are some who enjoy the fact that they can directly help their DPS buddy, or even a random stranger in a dungeon. It's much more personal and deliberate than a raid-wide buff, and not every action has to boost your own personal score to be meaningful. A lot of the posters here won't get that because they are "veterans" who no longer enjoy the simple elements of the game, but instead focus heavily on proving their technical mastery, and anything that gets in the way of that is bad design.

Would the game really become better if devs designed the game with parsing in mind? That would be like designing a game with speed runners in mind. If those players figure out a way to make it work, fine. But they are a minority and the experience of the rest of the players shouldn't be diminished for the sake of the former.

I kind of listed the technical reasons two posts up. Pi lives till it breaks the game then it dies again like it did before. The cycle is unending and the lessons are never learned....

[Thestrawman]

I just don't get why the goto rebuttal against making the game more challenging is a callback to a game over decades old..

Even looking at classic wow its clear people don't look at gaming the same way.

The irony of dismissing an old game while championing a game only slightly younger. All the while missing the point of the post

[epigramx]

it is also accounted for in fight design

Even if that assumption was true (are you a dev to know?), it's completely irrelevant to the concept. I can still time warp whenever I want and ruin the guild's performance; you can still PI whenever you want and lower the guild's performance; you still support selfishness and evading the subject with off topic remarks like "it's not such a big buff like others" does not change the quality of it so get your guild to learn to read logs because if they accuse people of lower performance because they gave out PI optimally: they're pretty bad at their job.

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you then trivialize the encounter in a way that can only be done by stacking two specific classes.

By the way: I later noticed you went slightly off topic compared to others with this angle.

It's still a fallacy. You can stack classes with Time Warp too.

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Your spicy take is that deep down, everyone is secretly in competition amongst one another

You have the delusion that's a secret. It's obvious everyone is at competition; they are humans; they are naturally inclined to improve themselves compared to others.

What you don't get is that guilds are at competition with other guilds to rank better; PI used optimally helps at that; being selfish with it damages the guild's goals.

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I suspect that the "social tension" issue affects a really small % of players.

[..]

You're right on the rest, but unfortunately there a very big bulk of well-performing players that keep protesting against spells that are not purely personal.

Of course they are not in the top 10 guilds and they are not in the most casual guilds but let's say top 50 to top 1000 is a big bulk of raiders.

[Candlewick]

Even if that assumption was true (are you a dev to know?), it's completely irrelevant to the concept. I can still time warp whenever I want and ruin the guild's performance; you can still PI whenever you want and lower the guild's performance; you still support selfishness and evading the subject with off topic remarks like "it's not such a big buff like others" does not change the quality of it so get your guild to learn to read logs because if they accuse people of lower performance because they gave out PI optimally: they're pretty bad at their job.

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By the way: I later noticed you went slightly off topic compared to others with this angle.

It's still a fallacy. You can stack classes with Time Warp too.

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You have the delusion that's a secret. It's obvious everyone is at competition; they are humans; they are naturally inclined to improve themselves compared to others.

What you don't get is that guilds are at competition with other guilds to rank better; PI used optimally helps at that; being selfish with it damages the guild's goals.

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You're right on the rest, but unfortunately there a very big bulk of well-performing players that keep protesting against spells that are not purely personal.

Of course they are not in the top 10 guilds and they are not in the most casual guilds but let's say top 50 to top 1000 is a big bulk of raiders.

You keep talking like it is a personal thing... it isnt the better guilds will stack personal buffs if they can break a fight and then X + priest becomes the raid comp to kill a road block boss. I have no interest in what people do in heroic dungeons or lfr.

The issue with PI, tricks of the trade , single buffs is they eventually break encounter design and either have to be removed or the spec in question needs to be gutted.

Your terrible heroic guild is irrelevant to the discussion im explaining in pained detail on how this buff breaks the game when used properly. Maybe you could check it like battle rezs where if X amount of PIs went out they wouldnt be able to cast it?

Even that feels like a stop gap for burn phase abuse. You gotta learn the game a bit before trying to use buzz words from the people who thought covenants were a good idea.

[Al Gorefiend]

Even if that assumption was true (are you a dev to know?), it's completely irrelevant to the concept. I can still time warp whenever I want and ruin the guild's performance; you can still PI whenever you want and lower the guild's performance; you still support selfishness and evading the subject with off topic remarks like "it's not such a big buff like others" does not change the quality of it so get your guild to learn to read logs because if they accuse people of lower performance because they gave out PI optimally: they're pretty bad at their job.

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By the way: I later noticed you went slightly off topic compared to others with this angle.

It's still a fallacy. You can stack classes with Time Warp too.

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You have the delusion that's a secret. It's obvious everyone is at competition; they are humans; they are naturally inclined to improve themselves compared to others.

What you don't get is that guilds are at competition with other guilds to rank better; PI used optimally helps at that; being selfish with it damages the guild's goals.

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You're right on the rest, but unfortunately there a very big bulk of well-performing players that keep protesting against spells that are not purely personal.

Of course they are not in the top 10 guilds and they are not in the most casual guilds but let's say top 50 to top 1000 is a big bulk of raiders.

You keep cherry picking my entire posts to quote only small parts that you can segue off of to continue your own disillusionment. What you have yet to do is agree with anything I've stated regarding the healing specs not having to give up their PI at all. In all my time raiding never once has someone had the audacity to whisper me for PI, the discipline priest toolkit has been built around having PI even during the expansion it wasn't castable on others. It's funny, I never noticed this social tension you speak of at all. Maybe it's you who needs to roll priest.

[epigramx]

You keep talking like it is a personal thing

better guilds will stack personal buffs

terrible heroic guild

You have been debunked on both counts and you repeat yourself. You are not the only person in the universe so you saying "it's not personal" is a false statement; this whole thread is full of people who say "PI is mine and I don't give it"; and: "better guilds" will stack classes ANYWAY so your "they stack classes with externals" is absolutely moot (especially because the externals may be weaker than the advantages of others).

And nice personal attack using only your imagination; I'm not in a "terrible heroic guild"; it's neither heroic or terrible.

[Candlewick]

You have been debunked on both counts and you repeat yourself. You are not the only person in the universe so you saying "it's not personal" is a false statement; this whole thread is full of people who say "PI is mine and I don't give it"; and: "better guilds" will stack classes ANYWAY so your "they stack classes with externals" is absolutely moot (especially because the externals may be weaker than the advantages of others).

And nice personal attack using only your imagination; I'm not in a "terrible heroic guild"; it's neither heroic or terrible.

If you are quoting words out of a sentance you kinda lost...

I explained why personal buffs break down eventually once a spec gains to much from them. I've not been debunked or even contested... actually you repeat my point trying to make it sound sarcastic but you dont contest it you just accept its correct and shake your fist at those " darn mythic raiders"

[epigramx]

the discipline priest toolkit has been built around having PI

That's your assumption (are you a dev?). Even if it is true: it's nothing; it can change with a patch.

It appears some of you want spells deleted from the game for selfish reasons and find excuses.

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I've not been debunked or even contested

Then your problem is that you don't get basic theorycrafting logic. You have the delusion that THE ONLY WAY to push a minmaxer raid leader to stack classes is if you have things like external buffs.

You don't get the basic irrefutable fact that you may stack OTHER classes who have BETTER benefits compared to others with externals (and even if they didn't: it's easily tuned with a patch).

[Candlewick]

That's your assumption (are you a dev?). Even if it is true: it's nothing; it can change with a patch.

It appears some of you want spells deleted from the game for selfish reasons and find excuses.

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Then your problem is that you don't get basic theorycrafting logic. You have the delusion that THE ONLY WAY to push a minmaxer raid leader to stack classes is if you have things like external buffs.

You don't get the basic irrefutable fact that you may stack OTHER classes who have BETTER benefits compared to others with externals (and even if they didn't: it's easily tuned with a patch).

That isn't what I said again if your going to quote actually quote the relevant parts not parts for a different argument.

PI is an aggravating factor for class stacking as it allows classes that already scale well to push even further and eventually just like before with tricks of the trade, mage and warlock single buffs and power infusion it is going to break a fight that would of otherwise had a tight dps check and it will once again be scrapped. You can blame those gosh darn mythic raiders all you want but I can't see a work around to that issues...

Like I said maybe limit it the same way battle resurrections are? As it stands now its an execute phase away from being scrapped. If you thought the weird blood lust example somehow countered my point... That isn't the same issue due to its raid wide CD.

[Al Gorefiend]

That's your assumption (are you a dev?). Even if it is true: it's nothing; it can change with a patch.

It appears some of you want spells deleted from the game for selfish reasons and find excuses.

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Then your problem is that you don't get basic theorycrafting logic. You have the delusion that THE ONLY WAY to push a minmaxer raid leader to stack classes is if you have things like external buffs.

You don't get the basic irrefutable fact that you may stack OTHER classes who have BETTER benefits compared to others with externals (and even if they didn't: it's easily tuned with a patch).

Its actually getting kind of ridiculous you think you're smarter than or see a different angle than anybody else here and continue being purposely obtuse to PI being used for non-DPS situations.

I chose to roll a healing spec in the first place so any accusations of my selfishness are moot, since the roll exists to make your allies do better.

[epigramx]

as it allows classes that already scale well to

Again: your understanding of theorycrafting is bad. Even if it is true it can be tuned; I have told you that already multiple times; you insist to promote the permanent deletion of spells that offer depth and you don't understand your reason is a fallacy since it relies on hypothetical or temporary tuning problems (e.g. other classes without PI may be even better stacked without externals depended on tuning).

Instead of personally attacking people as "they quote me out of context" understand that the content of the quote is the problem.

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Its actually getting kind of ridiculous you think you're smarter than or see a different angle than anybody else here and continue being purposely obtuse to PI being used for non-DPS situations.

I chose to roll a healing spec in the first place so any accusations of my selfishness are moot, since the roll exists to make your allies do better.

First of all your off topic personal attacks are not an answer; you can hate people all you want: it will still never be an argument; remain on topic.

Your point of view depends on hypothetical or temporary tuning problems; these are not core issues; they do not require spell deletion.

Your final point is the most interesting; you have the impression healers do not compete for rankings; this is demonstrably false.

[KrayZ33]

Like I said maybe limit it the same way battle resurrections are? As it stands now its an execute phase away from being scrapped. If you thought the weird blood lust example somehow countered my point... That isn't the same issue due to its raid wide CD.

I mean, all we have to do is take a look at the past and see how Brutallus was done when Bloodlust was a party buff and had no debuff.
PI is the same thing but even more specific

So... it really needs to work like BR or a permanent buff to a player or a group (with less power obviously)... like Windfury totem for example.

[epigramx]

take a look at the past and see how Brutallus was done when Bloodlust was a party buff.

That argument is a fallacy in that form. You have to prove first that that's a problem; it might not be a problem at all; it might be very good for the game.

It offers depth to the game for the raid leaders to have to think for that; the tuning may make other 'stackings' even better; PI does not have to be OP.

[KrayZ33]

That argument is a fallacy in that form. You have to prove first that that's a problem; it might not be a problem at all; it might be very good for the game.

It offers depth to the game for the raid leaders to have to think for that; the tuning may make other 'stackings' even better; PI does not have to be OP.

The proof was already done in TBC. What are you talking about.

[epigramx]

The proof was already done in TBC. What are you talking about.

That's not proof; it's your impression and one dev decision; you might be wrong and they can be wrong (obviously (since you say they are wrong NOW so you contradict yourself with you implying they're infallible at some points but not in others)).

You misunderstand basic theorycrafting concepts. You describe problems that are purely depended on temporary or hypothetical tuning problems; at the most you could claim 'clunkiness '; but clunkiness is subjective since others may see depth.

[KrayZ33]

That's not proof; it's your impression and one dev decision; you might be wrong and they can be wrong (obviously (since you say they are wrong NOW so you contradict yourself with you implying they're infallible at some points but not in others)).

You misunderstandi basic theorycrafting concepts. You describe problems that are purely depended on temporary or hypothetical tuning problems; at them most you could claim 'chunkiness'; but chunkiness is subjective since others may see depth.

What Dev decision? And what is that weird "mind-game gotcha!!" thing you want to do here?

The proof is that guilds stacked an insane amounts of shamans to kill the boss. That means guilds will do the same for PI when required as it is already rather dangerous.
So either you nerf it or you limit it (which is a nerf)
If every druid still had their own BRs, you'd stack more druids/BRers as well.

Not because you can revive people failing mechanics btw.
You are just blind to the potential abuse.

lul @ your theorycrafting talk btw.

[Guanciale]

If you play with other humans: the social tension of "who gets PI" is something you should manage. Or put it another way: if you're such a hard core player and so good: learn to be good at managing social tension too.

As many have said this is a non-issue for hardcore players. Humans who are objective and goal-orientated (like the hardcore segment of the WoW population) don't give a damn who gets PI, all that is of concern is that it is used effectively in a manner which will net the maximum gain possible. There are the few "try-hards" that get upset they don't get it, but this will never happen in the top guilds; in those kind of environments such individuals are sought out and replaced with individuals who priorities are focused toward team-play.

Echo isn't only the best guild cos they parse the the highest (though they might aswell). Its because the level of organization and preparation they have is enormous and their players are so experienced and skilled that questions like "Who gets PI" is already known before there is even a discussion over it in most cases.

This "human tension" happens in guilds where the priority isn't progress orientated and is instead focused on individualistic needs of a person to pad the meters for some form of self validation. Such guilds are incapable of competing the 1% of top guilds. Im not saying it doesn't happen it's exceedingly rare.

[epigramx]

The proof is that guilds stacked an insane amounts of shamans to kill the boss. That means guilds will do the same for PI when required.

No. This is purely based on a temporary tuning problem. You do not promote the permanent deletion of spells from the game just because the devs fucked up temporarily; it is literally like deleting Arcane Blast from the game because it was overtuned for one patch; you may think that it's not the same but it objectively is because you misunderstand the concept of tuning (e.g. you can nerf even Bloodlust to the point that it becomes non-critical).