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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Well, a lot of people here are old and treat the world like it is still 2005. People are still hung up on changes to WoW made like 14 years ago, or systems that have existed longer than they haven't.

    That's just MMO-C pool
    My ban from blizzards forums tastes all the more bitter now

  2. #282
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It doesn't matter. A turd does not stop being a turd just because it's smaller. One could use Time Warp when their cooldowns align because their selfish and ruin their guild performance; you are the same; you say: "my PI is mine so I am selfish and lower my guild performance because I want my DPS meter to look better".
    My DPS meter lol. I get it, you think you're talking to a shadow priest. Let someone kick me from the guild for being selfish because I PI'd myself on a heavy healing phase this is getting funny

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candlewick View Post
    It simply breaks the game... this isnt a new thing its been around since the and everytime it lasts until one spec gains to much benefit or it pushes a strong spec into absurdly broken and gets removed.

    Wow has a lot of faults but what it is known for is its hard content at end game. PI will eventually get the tricks of the trade treatment.
    Or it goes back to baseline discipline priest, healers bringing powerful buffs is nothing new.
    Last edited by Al Gorefiend; 2021-12-28 at 05:22 PM.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    My DPS meter lol. I get it, you think you're talking to a shadow priest.
    It doesn't matter. Healers fight over HPS rankings too. If your guild knows how to read logs it's not a problem; they'll know you gave it away to help them; if they don't: it's their fault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candlewick View Post
    It simply breaks the game...
    No more than Time Warp "breaks" the game. I could use it when my cooldowns align.

    Stop being selfish or/and get your guild to know how to read logs in depth.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It doesn't matter. Healers fight over HPS rankings too. If your guild knows how to read logs it's not a problem; they'll know you gave it away to help them; if they don't: it's their fault.

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    No more than Time Warp "breaks" the game. I could use it when my cooldowns align.

    Stop being selfish or/and get your guild to know how to read logs in depth.
    Trying to patronizing doesnt hide your own ignorance to how the game functions. Yes blood lust is the most powerful cool down and effects fight design but it is also accounted for in fight design. You can not do the same with singular buffs like the removed tricks of the trade. If you take a fight and have the most difficult phase be the last phase (painsmith for example) and have classes with amazing executes get buffed with tricks you then trivialize the encounter in a way that can only be done by stacking two specific classes.

    This is the problem with PI, tricks of the trade before nerfs, and the mage and warlock buffs. They actively work against encounter design and limit class diversity. You droning out some weird personal stake or desire to be a unique snowflake does not factor into it.

  5. #285
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    It doesn't matter. Healers fight over HPS rankings too. If your guild knows how to read logs it's not a problem; they'll know you gave it away to help them; if they don't: it's their fault.
    Your spicy take is that deep down, everyone is secretly in competition amongst one another to be the top of the meters, rather than work together to complete the content. Therefore, abilities like Power Infusion, if casted on oneself is symbolically a show of one being a selfish asshole.

    Here's my spicy take: Once again you DPSers prove you need to be babysat.

  6. #286
    I suspect that the "social tension" issue affects a really small % of players. Should an entire category of class mechanics (single target external DPS buffs) be removed simply because of this small vocal minority?

    Who benefits from these mechanics? It's a type of mechanic that promotes player interaction, which is generally something that the game is lacking these days. Among the casual player base, I can imagine there are some who enjoy the fact that they can directly help their DPS buddy, or even a random stranger in a dungeon. It's much more personal and deliberate than a raid-wide buff, and not every action has to boost your own personal score to be meaningful. A lot of the posters here won't get that because they are "veterans" who no longer enjoy the simple elements of the game, but instead focus heavily on proving their technical mastery, and anything that gets in the way of that is bad design.

    Would the game really become better if devs designed the game with parsing in mind? That would be like designing a game with speed runners in mind. If those players figure out a way to make it work, fine. But they are a minority and the experience of the rest of the players shouldn't be diminished for the sake of the former.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Davryn View Post
    I suspect that the "social tension" issue affects a really small % of players. Should an entire category of class mechanics (single target external DPS buffs) be removed simply because of this small vocal minority?

    Who benefits from these mechanics? It's a type of mechanic that promotes player interaction, which is generally something that the game is lacking these days. Among the casual player base, I can imagine there are some who enjoy the fact that they can directly help their DPS buddy, or even a random stranger in a dungeon. It's much more personal and deliberate than a raid-wide buff, and not every action has to boost your own personal score to be meaningful. A lot of the posters here won't get that because they are "veterans" who no longer enjoy the simple elements of the game, but instead focus heavily on proving their technical mastery, and anything that gets in the way of that is bad design.

    Would the game really become better if devs designed the game with parsing in mind? That would be like designing a game with speed runners in mind. If those players figure out a way to make it work, fine. But they are a minority and the experience of the rest of the players shouldn't be diminished for the sake of the former.
    I kind of listed the technical reasons two posts up. Pi lives till it breaks the game then it dies again like it did before. The cycle is unending and the lessons are never learned....

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Candlewick View Post
    I just don't get why the goto rebuttal against making the game more challenging is a callback to a game over decades old..

    Even looking at classic wow its clear people don't look at gaming the same way.
    The irony of dismissing an old game while championing a game only slightly younger. All the while missing the point of the post

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Candlewick View Post
    it is also accounted for in fight design
    Even if that assumption was true (are you a dev to know?), it's completely irrelevant to the concept. I can still time warp whenever I want and ruin the guild's performance; you can still PI whenever you want and lower the guild's performance; you still support selfishness and evading the subject with off topic remarks like "it's not such a big buff like others" does not change the quality of it so get your guild to learn to read logs because if they accuse people of lower performance because they gave out PI optimally: they're pretty bad at their job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candlewick View Post
    you then trivialize the encounter in a way that can only be done by stacking two specific classes.
    By the way: I later noticed you went slightly off topic compared to others with this angle.

    It's still a fallacy. You can stack classes with Time Warp too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Your spicy take is that deep down, everyone is secretly in competition amongst one another
    You have the delusion that's a secret. It's obvious everyone is at competition; they are humans; they are naturally inclined to improve themselves compared to others.

    What you don't get is that guilds are at competition with other guilds to rank better; PI used optimally helps at that; being selfish with it damages the guild's goals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davryn View Post
    I suspect that the "social tension" issue affects a really small % of players.

    [..]
    You're right on the rest, but unfortunately there a very big bulk of well-performing players that keep protesting against spells that are not purely personal.

    Of course they are not in the top 10 guilds and they are not in the most casual guilds but let's say top 50 to top 1000 is a big bulk of raiders.
    Last edited by epigramx; 2021-12-29 at 06:26 AM.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Even if that assumption was true (are you a dev to know?), it's completely irrelevant to the concept. I can still time warp whenever I want and ruin the guild's performance; you can still PI whenever you want and lower the guild's performance; you still support selfishness and evading the subject with off topic remarks like "it's not such a big buff like others" does not change the quality of it so get your guild to learn to read logs because if they accuse people of lower performance because they gave out PI optimally: they're pretty bad at their job.

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    By the way: I later noticed you went slightly off topic compared to others with this angle.

    It's still a fallacy. You can stack classes with Time Warp too.

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    You have the delusion that's a secret. It's obvious everyone is at competition; they are humans; they are naturally inclined to improve themselves compared to others.

    What you don't get is that guilds are at competition with other guilds to rank better; PI used optimally helps at that; being selfish with it damages the guild's goals.

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    You're right on the rest, but unfortunately there a very big bulk of well-performing players that keep protesting against spells that are not purely personal.

    Of course they are not in the top 10 guilds and they are not in the most casual guilds but let's say top 50 to top 1000 is a big bulk of raiders.
    You keep talking like it is a personal thing... it isnt the better guilds will stack personal buffs if they can break a fight and then X + priest becomes the raid comp to kill a road block boss. I have no interest in what people do in heroic dungeons or lfr.

    The issue with PI, tricks of the trade , single buffs is they eventually break encounter design and either have to be removed or the spec in question needs to be gutted.

    Your terrible heroic guild is irrelevant to the discussion im explaining in pained detail on how this buff breaks the game when used properly. Maybe you could check it like battle rezs where if X amount of PIs went out they wouldnt be able to cast it?

    Even that feels like a stop gap for burn phase abuse. You gotta learn the game a bit before trying to use buzz words from the people who thought covenants were a good idea.

  11. #291
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Even if that assumption was true (are you a dev to know?), it's completely irrelevant to the concept. I can still time warp whenever I want and ruin the guild's performance; you can still PI whenever you want and lower the guild's performance; you still support selfishness and evading the subject with off topic remarks like "it's not such a big buff like others" does not change the quality of it so get your guild to learn to read logs because if they accuse people of lower performance because they gave out PI optimally: they're pretty bad at their job.

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    By the way: I later noticed you went slightly off topic compared to others with this angle.

    It's still a fallacy. You can stack classes with Time Warp too.

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    You have the delusion that's a secret. It's obvious everyone is at competition; they are humans; they are naturally inclined to improve themselves compared to others.

    What you don't get is that guilds are at competition with other guilds to rank better; PI used optimally helps at that; being selfish with it damages the guild's goals.

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    You're right on the rest, but unfortunately there a very big bulk of well-performing players that keep protesting against spells that are not purely personal.

    Of course they are not in the top 10 guilds and they are not in the most casual guilds but let's say top 50 to top 1000 is a big bulk of raiders.
    You keep cherry picking my entire posts to quote only small parts that you can segue off of to continue your own disillusionment. What you have yet to do is agree with anything I've stated regarding the healing specs not having to give up their PI at all. In all my time raiding never once has someone had the audacity to whisper me for PI, the discipline priest toolkit has been built around having PI even during the expansion it wasn't castable on others. It's funny, I never noticed this social tension you speak of at all. Maybe it's you who needs to roll priest.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Candlewick View Post
    You keep talking like it is a personal thing

    better guilds will stack personal buffs

    terrible heroic guild

    You have been debunked on both counts and you repeat yourself. You are not the only person in the universe so you saying "it's not personal" is a false statement; this whole thread is full of people who say "PI is mine and I don't give it"; and: "better guilds" will stack classes ANYWAY so your "they stack classes with externals" is absolutely moot (especially because the externals may be weaker than the advantages of others).

    And nice personal attack using only your imagination; I'm not in a "terrible heroic guild"; it's neither heroic or terrible.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You have been debunked on both counts and you repeat yourself. You are not the only person in the universe so you saying "it's not personal" is a false statement; this whole thread is full of people who say "PI is mine and I don't give it"; and: "better guilds" will stack classes ANYWAY so your "they stack classes with externals" is absolutely moot (especially because the externals may be weaker than the advantages of others).

    And nice personal attack using only your imagination; I'm not in a "terrible heroic guild"; it's neither heroic or terrible.
    If you are quoting words out of a sentance you kinda lost...

    I explained why personal buffs break down eventually once a spec gains to much from them. I've not been debunked or even contested... actually you repeat my point trying to make it sound sarcastic but you dont contest it you just accept its correct and shake your fist at those " darn mythic raiders"

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    the discipline priest toolkit has been built around having PI
    That's your assumption (are you a dev?). Even if it is true: it's nothing; it can change with a patch.

    It appears some of you want spells deleted from the game for selfish reasons and find excuses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candlewick View Post
    I've not been debunked or even contested
    Then your problem is that you don't get basic theorycrafting logic. You have the delusion that THE ONLY WAY to push a minmaxer raid leader to stack classes is if you have things like external buffs.

    You don't get the basic irrefutable fact that you may stack OTHER classes who have BETTER benefits compared to others with externals (and even if they didn't: it's easily tuned with a patch).
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That's your assumption (are you a dev?). Even if it is true: it's nothing; it can change with a patch.

    It appears some of you want spells deleted from the game for selfish reasons and find excuses.

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    Then your problem is that you don't get basic theorycrafting logic. You have the delusion that THE ONLY WAY to push a minmaxer raid leader to stack classes is if you have things like external buffs.

    You don't get the basic irrefutable fact that you may stack OTHER classes who have BETTER benefits compared to others with externals (and even if they didn't: it's easily tuned with a patch).
    That isn't what I said again if your going to quote actually quote the relevant parts not parts for a different argument.

    PI is an aggravating factor for class stacking as it allows classes that already scale well to push even further and eventually just like before with tricks of the trade, mage and warlock single buffs and power infusion it is going to break a fight that would of otherwise had a tight dps check and it will once again be scrapped. You can blame those gosh darn mythic raiders all you want but I can't see a work around to that issues...

    Like I said maybe limit it the same way battle resurrections are? As it stands now its an execute phase away from being scrapped. If you thought the weird blood lust example somehow countered my point... That isn't the same issue due to its raid wide CD.

  16. #296
    Old God Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That's your assumption (are you a dev?). Even if it is true: it's nothing; it can change with a patch.

    It appears some of you want spells deleted from the game for selfish reasons and find excuses.

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    Then your problem is that you don't get basic theorycrafting logic. You have the delusion that THE ONLY WAY to push a minmaxer raid leader to stack classes is if you have things like external buffs.

    You don't get the basic irrefutable fact that you may stack OTHER classes who have BETTER benefits compared to others with externals (and even if they didn't: it's easily tuned with a patch).
    Its actually getting kind of ridiculous you think you're smarter than or see a different angle than anybody else here and continue being purposely obtuse to PI being used for non-DPS situations.

    I chose to roll a healing spec in the first place so any accusations of my selfishness are moot, since the roll exists to make your allies do better.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Candlewick View Post
    as it allows classes that already scale well to
    Again: your understanding of theorycrafting is bad. Even if it is true it can be tuned; I have told you that already multiple times; you insist to promote the permanent deletion of spells that offer depth and you don't understand your reason is a fallacy since it relies on hypothetical or temporary tuning problems (e.g. other classes without PI may be even better stacked without externals depended on tuning).

    Instead of personally attacking people as "they quote me out of context" understand that the content of the quote is the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al Gorefiend View Post
    Its actually getting kind of ridiculous you think you're smarter than or see a different angle than anybody else here and continue being purposely obtuse to PI being used for non-DPS situations.

    I chose to roll a healing spec in the first place so any accusations of my selfishness are moot, since the roll exists to make your allies do better.
    First of all your off topic personal attacks are not an answer; you can hate people all you want: it will still never be an argument; remain on topic.

    Your point of view depends on hypothetical or temporary tuning problems; these are not core issues; they do not require spell deletion.

    Your final point is the most interesting; you have the impression healers do not compete for rankings; this is demonstrably false.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Candlewick View Post

    Like I said maybe limit it the same way battle resurrections are? As it stands now its an execute phase away from being scrapped. If you thought the weird blood lust example somehow countered my point... That isn't the same issue due to its raid wide CD.
    I mean, all we have to do is take a look at the past and see how Brutallus was done when Bloodlust was a party buff and had no debuff.
    PI is the same thing but even more specific

    So... it really needs to work like BR or a permanent buff to a player or a group (with less power obviously)... like Windfury totem for example.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-12-30 at 08:55 AM.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    take a look at the past and see how Brutallus was done when Bloodlust was a party buff.
    That argument is a fallacy in that form. You have to prove first that that's a problem; it might not be a problem at all; it might be very good for the game.

    It offers depth to the game for the raid leaders to have to think for that; the tuning may make other 'stackings' even better; PI does not have to be OP.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That argument is a fallacy in that form. You have to prove first that that's a problem; it might not be a problem at all; it might be very good for the game.

    It offers depth to the game for the raid leaders to have to think for that; the tuning may make other 'stackings' even better; PI does not have to be OP.
    The proof was already done in TBC. What are you talking about.

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