Hard core raiders don't like the answer: but Blizzard is right about Power Infusion.

[Candlewick]

It seems kind of silly to label anything Blizzard changes as "desperation." They're "stubborn" if they don't change it, they're "desperate" if they do. There's no positive here. No matter what they do, people like you will spin it in the most cynical, pointlessly negative manner possible to drive home whatever opinion they have about Blizzard failing to design the game exactly the way that individual players thinks best. And that's precisely why I think they shouldn't give a single fuck about all the whining that goes on here.

Because they constantly act stubborn then desperate in that order repeatedly ? They constantly refuse to change things because of their "vision" then constantly scramble and add patched together half baked system when the community warning them that their vision is once again ill conceived and so conceptually flawed it can't be fixed only made non relevant ?

It's to the point when blizzard brings up their "vision" the community immediately brings up their success rate. If they want praise they need to actually learn lessons and take feedback not haughty dismiss warnings then scramble in a mad dash to put in anything to offset their fuck up.

I am not pretending the top Player base are some saints of game design made manifest. Odds are they would want a very conservative approach to design and would rarely if ever want to see things made outside of the three pillars. I wouldnt turn to them for designing content but rather use them to utterly rip to shreds content being developed and have the faults drawn out in agonizing detail. Blizzard doesn't need idea men right now. They need people to tell them no.

[epigramx]

Your reading comprehension is nonexistent, maybe you should stop leaving out 90% of the quotes and read them instead.

Instead of being angry that someone quoted you: maybe understand why they did it.

There's nothing wrong with the rest: it's the quotations that have a problem.

You have a delusion that untuned spells/classes/specs must be deleted.

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How can you tune it?

Do you make the class that gains to much useless without PI or do you make PI so useless it doesn't allow that spec to dominate...?

I'm not surprised you have a difficulty here; you are a person of extremes; your initial problem is that you imagine PI can be only overpowered and now you have a delusion that it can be only underpowered in the other extreme.

(Good) devs never try to overpower them or underpower them; they try to balance it; they can objectively make a PI that does not require stacking priests (and it is obviously already proven in several encounters and patches).

I reiterate: it's exactly the same like wanting to delete ANY other spell because it's overpowered; you may think that it's not the same but it objectively is; the higher complexity of externals only needs better devs.

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It seems kind of silly to label anything Blizzard changes as "desperation." They're "stubborn" if they don't change it, they're "desperate" if they do. There's no positive here. No matter what they do, people like you will spin it in the most cynical, pointlessly negative manner possible to drive home whatever opinion they have about Blizzard failing to design the game exactly the way that individual players thinks best.

Wise words. Some people have developed the delusion that devs are absolutely terrible people at everything they do to the point that devs supposedly can do NOTHING correctly. E.g. I was going back and forth here with someone and then it was implicitly revealed that their real problem is that they only think of extremes when it gets to devs; PI is supposedly overpowered and it must be deleted; but if presented with the idea "but it can be tuned" they return with "but that'll be underpowered so it should still be deleted!".

[trapmaster]

Remove PI....yes? They removed aspect of the fox.

[KrayZ33]

Instead of being angry that someone quoted you: maybe understand why they did it.

There's nothing wrong with the rest: it's the quotations that have a problem.

You have a delusion that untuned spells/classes/specs must be deleted.

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I'm not surprised you have a difficulty here; you are a person of extremes; your initial problem is that you imagine PI can be only overpowered and now you have a delusion that it can be only underpowered in the other extreme.

(Good) devs never try to overpower them or underpower them; they try to balance it; they can objectively make a PI that does not require stacking priests (and it is obviously already proven in several encounters and patches).

I reiterate: it's exactly the same like wanting to delete ANY other spell because it's overpowered; you may think that it's not the same but it objectively is; the higher complexity of externals only needs better devs.

Dude... for like the 10th time. Learn to read. I never said *anything* about removing the spell. Do you realize that a nerf can be done in like 500.000 ways and doesn't mean the spell has to be removed?
So for the love of god. Learn to read please and stop using strawmen in every single post you make.
You are arguing against something I'm not advocating for and you keep quoting me for some weird reason.

The things you quoted don't even imply I'm for a removal of the spell and if you'd read the whole sentence and follow the discussion you would've known that. But you didn't.

[epigramx]

I never said *anything* about removing the spell.

You already had that answered. Keeping the name of a spell is immaterial.

If you want the depth of the spell changed: you want another spell.

[Xath]

Ion, the day before SL is scheduled to release: "Hey Activision, you know that multi-billiion dollar product that we promised would ship Q3 2020? Yeah well it turns out that there's a few players upset about our core design feature so we're going to go ahead and scrap the entire thing and start over again."

Nah. I don't think so.

The feedback was there since alpha they just ignored it. They had months to do what they finally did in 9.1.5 and just remove the cd on covenant swapping.

[KrayZ33]

You already had that answered. Keeping the name of a spell is immaterial.

If you want the depth of the spell changed: you want another spell.

But you are wrong. What do we do now?

BR and BL are still the very same spell. They just got a different cooldown.
If keep the same exact PI but limit the raid use to 2-3 per encounter it's different from having parses with 40 external buffs, it also protect us from seeing priest-stacked for that purpose compared to other healers.

DPS contribution is already one of, if not *the* most important thing for the healer slots as Blizzard will never bring healing power down just so that it's balanced with PI in mind. And they shouldn't either way.

edit: Sylvanas is a 13+m fight. 2 disc priest can basically give 12 DPS an extra bloodlust for the duration of their cooldowns (which is the important part). Or one DPS 12 extra bloodlusts or however you need to split it.

[epigramx]

keep the same exact PI but limit the raid use to 2-3 per encounter

That's not a very bad idea. It could of course be balanced without that especially if it's not that powerful.

But of course it's better than others who say "just delete it / make it personal only".

[Candlewick]

That's not a very bad idea. It could of course be balanced without that especially if it's not that powerful.

But of course it's better than others who say "just delete it / make it personal only".

It might get something like the battle rezs restriction where it can only be cast a few time each fight. It's that or you need to nerf the priest class to under perform compared to all other spec for balance.

[epigramx]

It might get something like the battle rezs restriction where it can only be cast a few time each fight. It's that or you need to nerf the priest class to under perform compared to all other spec for balance.

Perhaps. I guess it's a nice compromise (at least if the devs aren't god-like at theorycrafting math).

Anything that doesn't turn the game into FPS-like simplistic classes of the same selfish abilities.

[KrayZee33]

Why did that account get banned for "trolling", rofl.
What a joke.

It might get something like the battle rezs restriction where it can only be cast a few time each fight. It's that or you need to nerf the priest class to under perform compared to all other spec for balance.

Exactly, and it would be a massive mistake if they'd balance healing around PI or external buffs, so they (hopefully) won't.
They shouldn't balance other classes around the existance of such spells either, which is why they need a more dependable baseline situation and that's what you get from making it a raid-wide limit.

[Candlewick]

Why did that account get banned for "trolling", rofl.
What a joke.



Exactly, and it would be a massive mistake if they'd balance healing around PI or external buffs, so they (hopefully) won't.
They shouldn't balance other classes around the existance of such spells either, which is why they need a more dependable baseline situation and that's what you get from making it a raid-wide limit.

It could open up some interesting utility to have a type of power boost spell added to classes that was restricted in such a manner.

Knowing blizzard though they will just add a weird outliner till it breaks something then bin it.

[varren]

We have seen this happen so many times with dark intent, tricks, unholy frenzy, etc. Community (rightfully) complains about abilities like this, Blizzard dances around the issue for 2 years, and then the finally when the next expac rolls around it is removed. Just business as usual tbh.

[epigramx]

We have seen this happen so many times with dark intent, tricks, unholy frenzy, etc. Community (rightfully) complains about abilities like this, Blizzard dances around the issue for 2 years, and then the finally when the next expac rolls around it is removed. Just business as usual tbh.

No reason to remove it. This very thread even came up with a solution that doesn't even need big brain devs to balance it; just limit the external uses per encounter.

All this philosophy of 'remove spells if they are not tuned perfectly yet' is a slippery slope to turning the game to a simplistic first-person-shooter so to speak.

[Candlewick]

No reason to remove it. This very thread even came up with a solution that doesn't even need big brain devs to balance it; just limit the external uses per encounter.

All this philosophy of 'remove spells if they are not tuned perfectly yet' is a slippery slope to turning the game to a simplistic first-person-shooter so to speak.

I mean removing it would still be the most healthy option... the solution is more a stop gap measure and will allow them to balance it somewhat. Singular buffs just are rather bad design and I expect blessing of seasons to fuck up next tier.

I can understand the attraction of the idea but it just doesn't really pan out gameplay wise. Even raid wide buffs like arcane int, shout, etc are not really good design but they are a needed evil to keep class diversity.

[epigramx]

Even raid wide buffs like arcane int, shout, etc are not really good design

There are two fallacies here. One: you imply there are no benefits to the depth brought to the game by having that kind of complexity; it's part of what makes setting up a guild group interesting; you delete that from the game too so you must take it into account.

Two and most importantly: it's not even theorycrafting-obligatory as an idea from a pure mathematical perspective; most of those calls of deletion are mainly based on "it's hard to develop"; get better at developing instead of deleting something.

[Candlewick]

There are two fallacies here. One: you imply there are no benefits to the depth brought to the game by having that kind of complexity; it's part of what makes setting up a guild group interesting; you delete that from the game too so you must take it into account.

Two and most importantly: it's not even theorycrafting-obligatory as an idea from a pure mathematical perspective; most of those calls of deletion are mainly based on "it's hard to develop"; get better at developing instead of deleting something.

I mean it isnt a fallacy you are just using that word to try and lend your argument a false sense of intellectual weight it doesnt have.

Group buffs are to stop two or three specs from composing the entire raid group. That is mathematically as you like to bring up the most effective way to play the game. I don't think it's better to develop then remove buffs like PI as they will always clash with specs that scale well as a design feature. The question then has to become how much damage do you take away from the priest to stop them and the scaling class from becoming the best answer to everything, or how badly do you gimp the scaling class to the point it can't function to the same level of other classes without PI?

I can think of ways of limiting the damage buffs like PI do but none of those solutions are as good as just removing the problem it creates all together.

[epigramx]

I mean it isnt a fallacy you are just using that word to try and lend your argument a false sense of intellectual weight it doesnt have.

Instead of personally attacking people as "pretentious fools": realize there may be substance in their argument. Your point of view is extremistically robotic; you only talk of numbers as if the game is only a simcraft parse; the game also has depth at the level of guild organization on what people to bring into an encounter that you want to delete by deleting all the spells you think "are impossible to balance perfectly".

And the worst part is: you are even technically wrong even if you assume guilds are simcraft robots; it's not impossible to balance spells like that; it just needs better devs (and by the hate you express against Blizzard here: you appear to imply they are incapable to do it (why do you play a game you hate then?)).

[Guanciale]

My guess would be like many others, he/she is an individual who has poured many hours into this game without ever reaching the top echelon in any respect be it collecting, raiding, m+ or PvP. And now instead of looking inward and trying to analyze where it all went wrong, they are revolting against the game looking for faults to why the game is 'dead', 'full of toxic neckbeards' that don't want them in their m+ keys and EVIL BLIZZARD is to blame.

When in reality they would have the same experience in any human activity where their input is required. People want to work with people who invest in themselves and try to push themselves, the last thing people want is the "casual" (that's the class they try to associate with to excuse themselves) who shows up uninformed, undergeared and are totally unprepared and are only there to have 'fun'. None wants to deal with that, and now that very same individual comes here and cries over the game being uninviting and unfriendly to casuals. When it's just not true.

I know many casual players who are great players and would have no problem getting into any aspect of the game they like be it mythic raiding or m+, but being casual they don't have time for it. (it's funny when a "casual" player says they can't get into a key all week... Mate your not a casual at that point... You're a failed semi to full hardcore player.)

Don't get me wrong this game has many areas where it can improve, Although the last persons opinion who matters is the faux-"casual" I described above.

Arguing over the balance of PI when not one of the top guilds are actively exploiting it during progress (since it's benefit comes with very real drawbacks as well) is so freaking absurd that it really shows how little you truly understand this game.

Whatever rationalisation you try to come up it needs to come from a place of experience and knowledge you obtained from understanding and putting into practice decisions you've made utilizing simcraft/warcraftlogs (claiming you know the game 'cause you play it is not enough), instead of mentioning this "social tension" bullsh*t you've constructed in your mind.

[Arkaine Valor]

So If i want to do logs top players will always be people with 3 priest using power infusion on them... so bad desing here... BL is the best part in raid when you feel all the people spamming like mad to down the boss all togheder... Power infusion ruins the feel of we are all the same ... so for me should be nerf to only priest use and avoid spam abuse in single raid members who will do better than others for this skill.