Hard core raiders don't like the answer: but Blizzard is right about Power Infusion.

[epigramx]

Lots of high end raiders care about parsing, it’s fun. Especially going for a 100, where you absolutely need every buff possible.

Maybe world first raiders don’t care, but top 100-500? For sure a lot of them do.

And it's illogical. The site clearly marks who got externals right next to the ranks themselves. So you effectively tell us that you rely on people who don't know how the site works to show off skill to them.

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Parsing and logs?

Let me tell you what can Blizzard do to make the field more even:
disable split runs / gear funneling, put back Master Loot, yes RNG can fuck you up, but it's still more even
disable BoEs (for the first few weeks maybe)


Guilds with infinite time on their hands will parse better in week1-2-3 Mythic, no matter if you got PI from your guildmate or not.
Guilds with infinite gold on their hands will parse better in week1-2-3 Mythic, no matter if you got PI from your guildmate or not.

No. People should learn how the logs work and figure out themselves if someone got externals. Why ruin the game because some people want to show off skill to people who don't know how to read logs?

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Its not fun is more the problem. I give it to who it helps most every time. It doesn't make me mad to do so. Because it's the absolute right call. Just like if a healer dies and I can drop form and pop a couple heals to stabilize things.

Imagine if the person that popped lust got the debuff but not the benefit. I doubt every mage/shaman would be fighting about who gets to pop it. Sure, they would figure out who makes the most sense to do it and move on in most cases but I doubt that person would claim that being the funnest moment of raids either.

Fun is subjective. Not everyone thinks raiding is only a dps meter. Some people use raiding as a playground of improving their social skills in a team and not being annoyed that someone got an external instead of you is part of improving that skill.

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Damn i gotta admit it never occurred to me some people might be "compete" parsing on farm content.
you gotta be bored out of your mind to do something as meaningless as that.
but to each their own i guess.

It's very common. But it's obviously neither the realm of the top 10 or the most casual. It's generally people that have cleared 10/10m by now and their skill in the game is limited to doing an encounter well (because obviously their social skills are lacking if they find an external cooldown "socially tense" between their own guild "mates").

[Gaidax]

It's a weak argument and Blizzard covered why. The warcraft logs site already puts an asterisk at rankings showing who has externals.

Again, you try to argue on the playing field you're not even part of. That's why your lack of understanding shows.

Nobody cares about individual logs, WCL can put zillion asterisks there - it won't matter. What matters is end tier sheet and all stars - there are no asterisks there. These are the rankings, it's where raiders get to flex.

Ultimately, WCL matters as much as RIO - and that is a lot. So just like Blizzard aligned with RIO, in the end they will also align with WCL and this friction will be retired as well.

[epigramx]

Right... social tension is good. That is why they removed mastet loot eh?

Apples and oranges; you compare a spell to a loot system. Ninja looter destroyed pugging.

Social tension with your guild "mates" is not the same game with the puggers.

[Mentacyde]

Parses are dumb

[epigramx]

Again, you try to argue on the playing field you're not even part of. That's why your lack of understanding shows.

Nobody cares about individual logs, WCL can put zillion asterisks there - it won't matter. What matters is end tier sheet and all stars - there are no asterisks there. These are the rankings, it's where raiders get to flex.

Ultimately, WCL matters as much as RIO - and that is a lot. So just like Blizzard aligned with RIO, in the end they will also align with WCL and this friction will be retired as well.

You can shout ad hominem attacks all you want; it's still not an argument; think of arguments instead of personal attacks to be taken seriously.

The main argument still flew over your head it seems. You effectively tell us you rely on naive people who can't read logs to show off skill.

[Swnem]

Apples and oranges; you compare a spell to a loot system. Ninja looter destroyed pugging.

Social tension with your guild "mates" is not the same game with the puggers.

Hey social tension is social tension. You can't pick and choose how here it's good social tension and there it isn't. Need to be consistant on the argument.

Is social tension good or bad?

You know this comes from the same company that says racials are a social problem, after having heavily influenced it for many years.

How do you eat this stuff up?

[Gaidax]

You can shout ad hominem attacks all you want; it's still not an argument; think of arguments instead of personal attacks to be taken seriously.

The main argument still flew over your head it seems. You effectively tell us you rely on naive people who can't read logs to show off skill.

Personal attacks?

Please, you're just some random dude trying to discuss something you have no real stake in. That's no personal attack, that's just the reality and it's why you don't understand where people are coming from.

[epigramx]

Hey social tension is social tension. You can't pick and choose how here it's good social tension and there it isn't. Need to be consistant on the argument.

It is consistent. Raiders want to perfect their skills inside their own guild; that includes skills in rotation and encounters; it also includes skills in social interactions with their friends and team mates.

Good luck trying to fix tensions with puggers; you will never do it since puggers are often your worst enemies; you effectively tell us you want to lock all the doors in your family house.

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you don't understand where people are coming from.

What I understand is that you have no response. You effectively tell us you rely on people who don't know how to read external effects in logs to show off skill to them.

Why is that something that Blizzard should support by removing features which enrich the game for people who like a game that goes more in depth?

[Tehalbino]

PI, windfury totem, etc has no place in current wow.
It's one of the reasons I could care less about raiding this expansion.

[Gaidax]

What I understand is that you have no response.

I gave plenty response, you decided to disregard, so I in turn decide to disregard as well.

From my standpoint I'm done here.

I said my piece as actual "hardcore raider", you can either accept that or keep soldiering on discussing something you're not part of and looking for similar-positioned people parroting your opinion.

---

As a matter of fact, to the void zone you go as per signature. I don't really like wasting my time.

[Argorwal]

I think things like PI or Windfury Totem create unnecessary friction in higher end guilds.

The main thing is after the progress is done and you got your Famed there is really little left but to push wcl % and that's where it gets unnecessarily annoying for people.

Like right now, my guild has mounts for all raiders, we're long over with raid and clear mythic full in one 3h raid, there is really no loot to be had anymore - you have raiders missing like odd few pieces that are side grades anyway.

So what else we have but to pump that personal % wcl? 9.2 won't be out for a good 2 months. And this is where PI and such become annoying AF.

That's where the problem lies.

You really think factoring in how much fun HoF guilds have on their reclears should be an actual design consideration for spell types?

And solely because of how it impacts a 3rd party website?

Talk about 1% of the 1% problems.

I'm glad Blizzard told players like that to get bent.

[Gaidax]

You really think factoring in how much fun HoF guilds have on their reclears should be an actual design consideration for spell types?

Talk about 1% of the 1% problems.

Seems to be enough of a consideration to warrant a blue post.

Besides it's not even some hugely unique case - a lot of class, encounter and game changes happened because of factoring in how much fun HoF guilds have on their re-clears. It's not some first case ever.

And it remains to be seen what will be the outcome.

[Segus1992]

Giving other players a buff is a great feeling if you also get something in return. Giving another player a buff in spite of buffing yourself feels pretty bad. That's the core issue with PI right now and one which was conveniently glossed over in that CM's response.

I don't agree, you can use the legendary for that if you really want to, but what's the difference between putting PI on the strongest DPS (or wherever the group will benefit most DPS-wise) to finish the run/boss faster/smoother and healing in general? Do you have to get something back for putting heals on others?

If you're talking as Shadow, yeah that's a bit iffy. I think PI can stay as it is for healer Priests but be selfcast only as Shadow with a talent for casting it on others.

[Aphrel]

Alrite, if that is your biggest concern then, why don't you just have your priest PI himself and go from there?

You are obviously on such a level of farm that it wouldn't matter anyway.

So go do that, and compare your weiners accordingly, real grown ups.
Or keep making problems for yourself to be mad about.

See now your thinking like someone not in the loop "it wouldnt matter for the kill anyway".

Oh and the old weiners comparision hurr durr.

And yes lets pretend my life revolves around this subject and that im howling at the moon about it.

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You somehow missed the boosting drama going on at blizzard? They play at higher level then you and most people in the game...

your not parsing if you are boosting, generally.

Killtimes are a huge contributor to good parses.

[ONCHEhap]

Giving other players a buff is a great feeling if you also get something in return. Giving another player a buff in spite of buffing yourself feels pretty bad. That's the core issue with PI right now and one which was conveniently glossed over in that CM's response.

That sounds like a personal issue.

Helping your teammates feels great

[Athorha]

Can't wait for things like war necrolord banner to become more mainstream / meta and see people complain how group efficiency creeps even greater beyond single player contributions

[Therougetitan]

Blizzard is right. If warcraftlogs put people who get PI and other buffs in a separate section that also meant separate all-star score people would be fine with it. It is player perception and insecurity about other people having a bigger number.

[agentsi]

We always made a joke out of it. Our priest was a nice guy, and would call out if someone wants PI. Of course, everyone asks for it, so he would throw it on tanks, or DPS. Just whoever he felt like. It was more of a thing we would joke about and have fun with, as it never was the reason we won a fight or lost a fight. It is fun, and for the try hards like others have stated, makes them look a little better in their guilds logs. But I bet when they die because they didn't do a mechanic while having PI, the priest cries a little on the inside.



All of these changes lately are too politically correct. People should have equal rights, sure, but people are not equal in terms of skill. Opportunities might be, but the outcomes of those are not. If history has taught us anything, the fall of a nation begins when Political correctness becomes nationally accepted, and we're almost there. I hope folks wake up.

[csguba]

Right... social tension is good. That is why they removed master loot eh?
Thing is, priests deserve to use their own cooldown.
Nah, they just contradict themselves and you fall like a ducky for everything they say.

For the record, i am someone who often gets PI cause i tend to use 2m CD specs. I still think it's something that should go away, cause it's not something the whole raid can share on. There are clearly better recipients.
If they want a "help the raid" spell, make one that actually helps everyone in the raid, not just one person. Otherwise you might just give PI baseline for the specs that benefit the most. It's dumb.

But hey... it's blizzard. They lost the plot a long time ago. Just another case of the fans having to fight the devs for something that should not be a debate.
No one likes it. Recipients don't like having to need it, priests don't like losing their CD, those that don't get it don't like missing out. But hey... the devs are ok with it. Usual arrogance we came to expect.
This distorting of the original devs of making a game for themselves is still giving rotten fruit. Original devs were in touch with the player base. Current devs are not. That is why making a game for themselves is giving this kind of result. Stop making a game for devs and make a game for the players. You'll find it will work better for you too.

Pretty much the above.

The benefit/enjoyment one person receives from this buff is vastly outweighed by the reduced enjoyment for the others not gaining the buff and the priest, particularly shadow.

Regarding the OP they're embarrassing themselves trying/failing to understand the views opposing to their own. We/Blizzard should be looking to incentivise people still playing the game particularly as the content drags on. If hardcore raiders use log parses as a way on continuing to play and enjoy the game and keep the activity of their guild and community going, that's great. Demonising them and having things like this actively putting them off playing once the content is on farm and no other reason otherwise to continue playing benefits nobody. It doesn't even make sense to me to be so opposed to this as it's not going to be detrimental to you.

It's not the biggest issue to hand certainly but should have been addressed a long time ago.

[Relapses]

I don't agree, you can use the legendary for that if you really want to, but what's the difference between putting PI on the strongest DPS (or wherever the group will benefit most DPS-wise) to finish the run/boss faster/smoother and healing in general? Do you have to get something back for putting heals on others?

If you're talking as Shadow, yeah that's a bit iffy. I think PI can stay as it is for healer Priests but be selfcast only as Shadow with a talent for casting it on others.

I should have clarified since a ton of people have quoted me thinking I'm a healer, but yes I was referring to Shadow.