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  1. #261
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raven View Post
    Lucky for you that we are still in Afrasiabi-era lore then, since Shadowlands was already planed and work been going on for awhile when Alex was removed and Danuser got promoted.
    no, the 'general' idea exist since ages, like how blizz planned since classic wow exps up to MoP itself, however if u remember the very common 'leak' they for example didn't have plan to divide cata and mop, but be 1 single exp
    so Afrasiabi at most had idea of a post-life exp, but 99% of details is surely not his work, specially since he isn't known to have a waifu pillow make her center of everything
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    I swear people who keep saying that shit about "lazy writing" and "consistency" just don't read the lore at all, but want to have a big opinion on it, basically stupidity.
    Argus being the reason why the Arbiter broke was the top theory all the way through the Shadowlands and it made sense in a lot of ways actually.

    Also, Blizzard is really screwing up themselves by releasing tid bits of lore through the PTR. Should just release all the lore in order with the patch itself.

    I am 100% confident that some people here would think the LOTR lore was lazy writing if it released today and ofc be mega smartasses about it.
    Bruh. The amount of inconsistencies and gaps that pop up in WoW's story are pretty damn unreal.

    Just for one example; Sylvanas went from a hesitant Warchief that didn't expect to be put in that position (which is known thanks to her own inner monologue in Before the Storm) to a manipulative master planner and partner of the Jailer in BfA, who basically had Vol'jin killed expressly so that Sylvanas could take the reins and enact their plan. So their plan to start the Fourth War depended upon her becoming the Warchief that she didn't expect to become? Big ol' inconsistency right there, and that first portrayal of Sylvanas and her motivations came right before BfA so it's not like they even have an excuse ala Metzen and the Draenei/Eredar debacle.

    You want to talk about people that don't read the lore? Well that apparently includes whoever was/is creating the direction of WoW's story.

    EDIT:
    This shit with the Arbiter and Argus may not be as egregious as the example above, but the fact that it's so open for interpretation and that there are some inconsistencies shows how poorly they defined their own lore and then executed a story based upon it.
    Last edited by Rexosaurus; 2021-12-24 at 05:05 PM.

  3. #263
    The Insane DeltrusDisc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    I'm tired of trying to pretend any of this Danuser-era lore is consistent
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Its really complicated, I think we need professional opinion on the matter.

    Lets ask David Lynch!
    Perfect clip of Lynch expressing the truth of the matter.

    Fuck WoW lore these days. Where's Chris Metzen when you need him?
    "For Teldrassil."
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocd061d7bab8 View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Rexosaurus View Post
    Bruh. The amount of inconsistencies and gaps that pop up in WoW's story are pretty damn unreal.

    Just for one example; Sylvanas went from a hesitant Warchief that didn't expect to be put in that position (which is known thanks to her own inner monologue in Before the Storm) to a manipulative master planner and partner of the Jailer in BfA, who basically had Vol'jin killed expressly so that Sylvanas could take the reins and enact their plan. So their plan to start the Fourth War depended upon her becoming the Warchief that she didn't expect to become? Big ol' inconsistency right there, and that first portrayal of Sylvanas and her motivations came right before BfA so it's not like they even have an excuse ala Metzen and the Draenei/Eredar debacle.

    You want to talk about people that don't read the lore? Well that apparently includes whoever was/is creating the direction of WoW's story.
    I get what you mean, but that particular contradiction is easily explained by the Jailer forcing her into taking the position against her own wishes via Vol'jin's death.

    Jailer wants Sylvanas to take over Horde leadership, she is hesitant. Jailer gets impatient, tells Muez'hala to trick Vol'jin into naming her. Vol'jin names her, Sylvanas stands at the pyre staring into space thinking "fuck, now what" until she decides there's nothing else to do but follow the Jailer's plan instead of her own preference of subterfuge.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Soeroah View Post
    I get what you mean, but that particular contradiction is easily explained by the Jailer forcing her into taking the position against her own wishes via Vol'jin's death.

    Jailer wants Sylvanas to take over Horde leadership, she is hesitant. Jailer gets impatient, tells Muez'hala to trick Vol'jin into naming her. Vol'jin names her, Sylvanas stands at the pyre staring into space thinking "fuck, now what" until she decides there's nothing else to do but follow the Jailer's plan instead of her own preference of subterfuge.
    That would make sense if we hadn't been literally reading her internal thoughts and there was zero mention of any of that except for "damn you Vol'jin". Plus her whole plan of destroying Stormwind and raising the denizens as Forsaken which went entirely unaddressed afterwards. There were no hints that she was playing at something larger within her own thoughts, and it all reads like a massive disconnect between Christie Golden and whoever was dictating the direction of WoW's story.

  6. #266
    Bloodsail Admiral froschhure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kayb View Post
    It's almost like they never had any idea of what it was themselves to begin with and only came up with it being Argus after stalking around fan forums. This expac can't end soon enough.
    I love this
    love WoWarcraft

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Rexosaurus View Post
    That would make sense if we hadn't been literally reading her internal thoughts and there was zero mention of any of that except for "damn you Vol'jin". Plus her whole plan of destroying Stormwind and raising the denizens as Forsaken which went entirely unaddressed afterwards. There were no hints that she was playing at something larger within her own thoughts, and it all reads like a massive disconnect between Christie Golden and whoever was dictating the direction of WoW's story.
    The obvious answer is that 'Sylvanas has been working with the Jailer since ICC' did not exist when Christie Golden wrote the novel.
    That's what happens when you try to retcon lore.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  8. #268
    At least when Metzen was inconsistent with the Eredar/Draenei he said 'ya we fucked up lol'

    These days we are apparently just too stupid to understand Danuser's hidden genius.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    At least when Metzen was inconsistent with the Eredar/Draenei he said 'ya we fucked up lol'

    These days we are apparently just too stupid to understand Danuser's hidden genius.
    Did someone have the chance to interview a developer and ask them directly if they are aware of some lore inconsistencies about these topics? Maybe they will be upfront about this. Hazzikostas doesn't hide when the result isn't up to what they were aiming for or if they misread reception, etc... Danuser or his team could very well be open on it too
    Last edited by Skildar; 2021-12-25 at 09:54 AM. Reason: typo on Ion's name... sry buddy

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Huh? They already confirmed it was Argus.
    They never did. We just all assumed. But if the dude from highmountain could have just been a red herring, it could have happened at any time: his soul could have been saved from the maw just like Alexandros.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skildar View Post
    Did someone have the chance to interview a developer and ask them directly if they are aware of some lore inconsistencies about these topics? Maybe they will be upfront about this. Hazzokostas doesn't hide when the result isn't up to what they were aiming for or if they misread reception, etc... Danuser or his team could very well be open on it too
    I mean "she's now the ranger AND the banshee" is what the fans considered her before Teldrassil anyway I think we're all going to pretend last 4 years never happened.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    I mean "she's now the ranger AND the banshee" is what the fans considered her before Teldrassil anyway I think we're all going to pretend last 4 years never happened.
    That's not an inconsistency, just a tool for them to write a book on Sylvanas and give some weight to this 180 she does so that it doesn't feel too easy for the character.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    DUDE.

    [Insert soul-splitting nonsense explaination]

    Thank you, mate. That's what I'm thinking for the most part reading through comments here. .-.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Edlarel View Post
    --- snip ---
    Summarized like this I feel it is actually a pretty good story. It's just that the (ingame) story telling is flawed, your summary is so much better!

    Mod Edit: Don't quote a giant post to respond with a short reply.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2021-12-25 at 08:34 PM. Reason: Removed Giant Quote

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    They never did. We just all assumed. But if the dude from highmountain could have just been a red herring, it could have happened at any time: his soul could have been saved from the maw just like Alexandros.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I mean "she's now the ranger AND the banshee" is what the fans considered her before Teldrassil anyway I think we're all going to pretend last 4 years never happened.
    https://ptr.wowhead.com/news/how-the...zing-of-325337

    I enjoy how confident you are despite being completely wrong.

    Darkseer Corrupter: Long have we awaited this moment. The Banished One's gambit made manifest...
    Darkseer Corrupter: A world-soul twisted by Death. A maul with which to crush the Arbiter...
    Darkseer Corrupter: And now it shall take this vessel! Argus will be Eternal!


    C'mon man. It was obvious before they confirmed it, what are you doing.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    But Like Xavius, I still wait an explanation as how the Jailer knew we would defeat Argus, unless the whole Legion downfall was orchestrated by the dreadlords and they somehow guided us to this point.
    He/the Dreadlords didn't need to know, at least not until shortly before it happened, until we started pushing back the Legion's invasion.
    Argus was being pumped full of Death energies, it is likely that the plan was for the Dreadlords to "gently push" Argus to the Shadowlands at some point, and then not only disable the Arbiter, but completely take her over - a modification of which we see in the 9.2 quest we're talking about, with the Dreadlords attempting to insert Argus as the new Arbiter.

    Mortals killing Argus prematurely sent this plan stumbling forward, with presumably not enough Anima yet to launch an attack on/reach Oribos, even with the regular flow of souls falling into the Maw.

    Starting to go more into speculation here, Zovaal was probably like "hey, we got this leader of a great power on this very populated world in our pocket, have her start a global war with lots of casualties and 'promise' her a seat at the table" and later "hmm, this world has several powerful goody-two-shoes, if we could turn them, that could be useful".
    But your duty to Azeroth is not yet complete. More is demanded of you... a price the living cannot pay.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
    He/the Dreadlords didn't need to know, at least not until shortly before it happened, until we started pushing back the Legion's invasion.
    Argus was being pumped full of Death energies, it is likely that the plan was for the Dreadlords to "gently push" Argus to the Shadowlands at some point, and then not only disable the Arbiter, but completely take her over - a modification of which we see in the 9.2 quest we're talking about, with the Dreadlords attempting to insert Argus as the new Arbiter.

    Mortals killing Argus prematurely sent this plan stumbling forward, with presumably not enough Anima yet to launch an attack on/reach Oribos, even with the regular flow of souls falling into the Maw.

    Starting to go more into speculation here, Zovaal was probably like "hey, we got this leader of a great power on this very populated world in our pocket, have her start a global war with lots of casualties and 'promise' her a seat at the table" and later "hmm, this world has several powerful goody-two-shoes, if we could turn them, that could be useful".
    According to 9.2 the Jailer took a gamble on Argus on the off chance that he would die and take out the Arbiter. It could have backfired, we will never know.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    I thought it has been known since the expac came out that it was Argus that broke the Arbiter?
    Pretty much assumed, but not who or how the Jailor spirit bombed the Arbiter while locked in the Maw.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Soeroah View Post
    Blizzard has a habit of doing big story things and not really explaining them.

    The simplest and most coherent explanation I can think of is:

    1) the Titans sapped a bunch of anima out of Argus's soul to bind Sargeras

    2) what was left over was sent to the Shadowlands, and being a titan world soul it wasn't something the Arbiter was equipped to deal with so it deactivated

    3) Argus' soul was sent to the Shadowlands instead of wherever Titans go because the dreadlords spent thousands of years infecting Argus with death alignment magic (we know a being's alignment and thus their death process can be changed if they are inundated with enough magic of that type, eg the Eredar and Fel = Twisting Nether)
    1. The titans used Argus as a magic amplifier to be able to summon Sargeras (the Titans in their current state do not have any power that's outside their little pantheon throne, thus they needed something to be able to pull Sargeras back to them and then use Argus' remaining power to lock him into place).

    2. The arbiter feels every emotion the individual had during it's lifetime, granted that Argus has been tortured for probably a thousand years is what broke her, not persé because it was a titan soul after all, she wouldn't have issues processing the other members of the pantheon other than Sargeras for example.

  19. #279
    When are we going to fix the giant sword that's still stabbed into Azeroth? I feel like that should have cause some problems at this point, if not because of all the over the top stuff, at least I'd imagine there'd be some Ecological trouble at this point.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    Pretty much assumed, but not who or how the Jailor spirit bombed the Arbiter while locked in the Maw.
    It was his plan all along since WC3 to spirit bomb (lol) the Arbiter we will surely find out and amazing and eye opening 'behind the scenes' details of the Jailer's plan before this expansion ends where it will all make perfect sense.

    And yes I am holding my breath!

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