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  1. #81
    Immortal FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Helya went to the Maw because of her working for the Jailor, not because of her death. She always had a special connection to both him and the Shadowlands. Besides, who knows exactly what she and Sylvanas did before we stumbled upon their meeting in Helheim?.
    Except.... The Arbiter alone decide where a soul goes, not the soul itself, not Zovaal.. Only the Arbiter.

    Thus, if the Arbiter was working when we killed Helya, she would have had to spend a lengthy time in Revendreth, in an attempt to atone her, before being sent on to the Maw (when failed to atone). That time haven't passed; just look at Kael'thas, he's still in Revendreth and he died YEARS before Helya, while having less to atone for.
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > ShaLa > MoP > BfA > WoD = WotLK

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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    The Dreadlords working for Zovaal and corrupting Sargeras for him and then aiding him in his mission makes no sense when Sargeras's mission was the destroy all the nascent world souls to stop them from being corrupted by the void.
    If Sargeras ever won and destroyed Azeroth Zovaal can't use the Machine of Origination anymore.
    Sargeras mission was insanity.

    0) Be a being of pure order
    1) Fear the void
    2) Co-opt the diametrically opposed cosmic power (disorder) to destroy the universe and re-order it.

    Zovaal's nathrezim are the ones who convinced Sargeras that this was a good plan. It's not a good plan and was bound to fail, especially because the Nathrezim---the same agents that sold Sargeras a bill of goods---were working (and sabotaging) the plan to their own ends.

  3. #83
    If anything I think maybe some how Argus's soul was split like Sylvanas. And the one on the pantheon is the other "good" half lol. Beyond idek Danuser is a dumbass.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Except.... The Arbiter alone decide where a soul goes, not the soul itself, not Zovaal.. Only the Arbiter.

    Thus, if the Arbiter was working when we killed Helya, she would have had to spend a lengthy time in Revendreth, in an attempt to atone her, before being sent on to the Maw (when failed to atone). That time haven't passed; just look at Kael'thas, he's still in Revendreth and he died YEARS before Helya, while having less to atone for.
    Except that's not actually how it works. Anything can interfere with the soul. See: Arthas, who was just taken straight to the Maw by Devos and Uther, or Sylvanas, who was snatched up by the Val'kyr before being sent back to Azeroth.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    Oddly enough though, Kel'thuzad was not brought to the Maw, but to Maldraxxus.
    The Arbiter doesn't always make the clearest (to us) decisions. There's a few souls who ended up in places that felt strange, but that's the purpose, eh?.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    Sargeras mission was insanity.

    0) Be a being of pure order
    1) Fear the void
    2) Co-opt the diametrically opposed cosmic power (disorder) to destroy the universe and re-order it.

    Zovaal's nathrezim are the ones who convinced Sargeras that this was a good plan. It's not a good plan and was bound to fail, especially because the Nathrezim---the same agents that sold Sargeras a bill of goods---were working (and sabotaging) the plan to their own ends.
    Except for the parts where he almost succeeded and the Nathrezim having no power to actually stop Sargeras

    And no Sargeras didn't want to destroy the universe. He feared that the void lords would corrupt a world soul and birth a dark titan that would destroy the universe. So he set out to kill all the world souls to prevent this. Its still mad, he is the mad titan after all, but its the cliché 'good guy turns to evil means to protect something he cares about".
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Except.... The Arbiter alone decide where a soul goes, not the soul itself, not Zovaal.. Only the Arbiter.

    Thus, if the Arbiter was working when we killed Helya, she would have had to spend a lengthy time in Revendreth, in an attempt to atone her, before being sent on to the Maw (when failed to atone). That time haven't passed; just look at Kael'thas, he's still in Revendreth and he died YEARS before Helya, while having less to atone for.
    The Arbiter judges mortal souls.

    Helya is obviously not a mortal. She probably got sent straight to the Maw due to her connection with the Jailer.
    Just like wild gods and loas have a straight ticket to Ardenweald no matter what.

    Edit: Even then, if a being has enough power they can direct a soul to wherever they want to.
    Bwonsamdi for example collects whoever he wants regardless of the Arbiter.

  8. #88
    Moderator Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    I said this many times. These damn Dreadlords. Grrr.
    Behold my new creation!


  9. #89
    The Unstoppable Force
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Well, he was ultimately stationed in Maldraxxus, but with a mission from the Jailer to bring down Necrolord hierarchy from within by suborning the House of Rituals and turning the Houses against one another while the Primus was imprisoned in Torghast. It seems likely he came to the Jailer first, or was in communion with him, well before he arrived in Maldraxxus.
    True, however he did die before the Arbiter being defunct, so he was send to Maldraxxus by the Arbiter. For whatever crazy reason.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FuxieDK View Post
    Except.... The Arbiter alone decide where a soul goes, not the soul itself, not Zovaal.. Only the Arbiter.

    Thus, if the Arbiter was working when we killed Helya, she would have had to spend a lengthy time in Revendreth, in an attempt to atone her, before being sent on to the Maw (when failed to atone). That time haven't passed; just look at Kael'thas, he's still in Revendreth and he died YEARS before Helya, while having less to atone for.
    Assuming that Helya actually died, that's kinda the point. It was revealed in BFA that she didn't, at least not really.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pokeylope View Post
    If anything I think maybe some how Argus's soul was split like Sylvanas. And the one on the pantheon is the other "good" half lol. Beyond idek Danuser is a dumbass.
    Soulsplitting only seems to happen if struck by a mourneblade such as Frostmourne.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    The Arbiter doesn't always make the clearest (to us) decisions. There's a few souls who ended up in places that felt strange, but that's the purpose, eh?.
    Indeed, the Arbiter never really seemed to work in the best of ways.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  10. #90
    It's pants on head stupid, but finally confirmed. Dreadlords did it ™

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gungus View Post
    Clearly we just ignored the Xavius theory, which was another major possibility if not even more logical but sure - continue to prove my point.
    Xavius was a nobody who worked for the old gods, why the hell would he have been the reason the arbitor blue screened.

    Again, the moment blizz said legion was when it happened and when we found out about the nathrezime true loyalties was when argus became the clear culprit to anyone who has common sense.

    Anything else is completely idiotic given just how obvious it was.

    Freaking Xavius, lmao give me a break.

  12. #92
    The Lightbringer Archmage Alodi's Avatar
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    People trying to make sense out of Danuser lore is funniest shit ever.
    THE HORDE WILL ENDURE , THE HORDE IS STRONG!

  13. #93
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Argus’ Soul split BS likely. Also, isn’t that just the remnants of Argus’ power?
    Considering the NPC is called "Echo of Argus"... you might not be too far off the mark, there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Archmage Alodi View Post
    People trying to make sense out of Danuser lore is funniest shit ever.
    As simple and silly as it can be, there's not much to make sense out of.

    Arbitor, blue screened during legion

    Ursoc went to ardenweald, means not the start of legion.

    Only other significant cosmic event was the death of argus.


    The nath we're the highest ranking members of the legion, yet we're loyal to zovaal, granting them easy access to argus manipulation.


    The red energy that hit the arbitor looked exactly like argus' red energy

    Like fuck people.... You need everything spoon fed to you?????

    How the hell do you not conclude that argus wasn't the reason.

    Got freaking people thinking it was freaking Xavius of all characters.

    Surprise no one ask if the death of deathwing was the cause.


    Ffs

  15. #95
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    Jailer predicted this before his character was even made up.
    The Jailer prophesized that the prophecy would be broken.

    Genius.

    And completely in line with WoW's current story, unfortunately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by olddog View Post
    this is also the World-soul of argus, eh? And Titan used the argus' soul to imprison Sargeras.

    there are two argus' souls?
    I think I figured it out.

    We defeated Argus in 7.3. So, Legion. So, we had our artifact weapons still. And canonically there was at least one Death Knight, let's assume it was Frost DK. So Argus got stabbed multiple times by a weapon made from leftovers of Frostmourne.

    So Argus soul was split and the good side helped the Pantheon enslave Sargeras, while the bad side went to Shadowlands and crashed Arbiter.exe.

    Truly, truly, Zooval is 5Head genius.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Except that's not actually how it works. Anything can interfere with the soul. See: Arthas, who was just taken straight to the Maw by Devos and Uther, or Sylvanas, who was snatched up by the Val'kyr before being sent back to Azeroth.
    Wasn't the jailor banished to the maw precisely to prevent him interfering with anything outside it? Do we assume that the Forsworn already existed before the arbiter broke? Or that a Dreadlord did it? Why can Dreadlords communicate with the Jailor?

    I can ask tons of questions but it boils down to: The first ones did a terrible job banishing Zoovaal. They just put him in a prison with no guards and obviously the means to communicate with the outside world as he likes, even when the realms of the first ones had all the power (anima) they needed. So much for "nobody ever escaped the maw".

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The Jailer prophesized that the prophecy would be broken.

    Genius.

    And completely in line with WoW's current story, unfortunately.
    xd

    he is such a meme at this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    They had no prior build-up and instead tried to leech off of already established things people are familiar with. The Scourge? Maldraxxus did that. The Lich King? The Jailer did that. Frostmourne? The Runecarver made that. Sargeras corruption by demons and everything resulting from that? Also the Jailer's plan.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    Jailer predicted this before his character was even made up.
    How do we know this? We have no way to know what the broad strokes of Blizzard's plans ever were unless they tell us outright. From what we have heard from lore has always been there are stronger forces at play than even the Lich King (during Q&A panels after the Old Gods/Void Lords were revealed). The Pantheons of Death and such are at least as old as Titan Lore, with them being the pantheon of order. Why is it so hard to believe that they had an outline of how this would all play out? Even if they didn't hit every story beat in a way that was satisfying to some doesn't mean it was all made up on the spot, or even later than the lore the preceded it in presentation.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    As simple and silly as it can be, there's not much to make sense out of.

    Arbitor, blue screened during legion

    Ursoc went to ardenweald, means not the start of legion.

    Only other significant cosmic event was the death of argus.


    The nath we're the highest ranking members of the legion, yet we're loyal to zovaal, granting them easy access to argus manipulation.


    The red energy that hit the arbitor looked exactly like argus' red energy

    Like fuck people.... You need everything spoon fed to you?????

    How the hell do you not conclude that argus wasn't the reason.

    Got freaking people thinking it was freaking Xavius of all characters.

    Surprise no one ask if the death of deathwing was the cause.


    Ffs
    Okay, how was this coordinated? Why are the dreadlords working for the Jailer at all? Apparently they are all powerful shapeshifting, teleporting, realm defying entities. They could run the universe (pretty much did, everything that happens in WoW comes down to "A Dreadlord did it" by now). What is their endgame?
    Why was the jailer banished and then left unchecked for millenia?
    The story presented only makes sense if we assume that all actors on "our" side are complete idiots. And while that seems to be the case, it really makes for a terrible story.

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