[Spoiler]So....giant red ball which broke arbiter is....

[Skandulous]

We pretty know Zovaal's motivation though. He wants to use the First One's constructs to remake the universe to serve him.

Why he needs Azeroth for that is the only remaining question. Some speculate Azeroth is not a titan but a First One. Which would make sense since arguably Zovaal could of just used the Nathrezim to siphon Argus's world soul and power whatever universe re-origination device is in the Sepulcher. Unless that device only operates for a First One. Then only Azeroth can be the key.

Azeroth is a world soul Titan not a First one unless your insinuating First ones are Titans

[Minikin]

What if that means that Sargeras broke free...

He wants his sword back?

- - - Updated - - -

Why do people always assume this is the work of a single individual?

I've never done work in a company where responsibility is not shared.

Every single company I've worked at shares tasks but eventually one entity has responsibility for green lighting a project or stopping it. Danuser either oked this or worse, gave birth to it.

[Wonderment2]

So beings from one of the six main planes returns to that plane upon death, except when they don't... And the Jailer knew that we'd defeat the legion and Argus?

Fuck this would have made so much more sense of the Jailer only ramped up his plans following Argus's death. But no he was already positioning Slyvannas on throne at the start of Legion....

Honestly this entire expansion pack could have made so much more sense if everything to do with Jailer during BFA was a reaction to Argus death (also ignore the titan go to titan heaven part). Don't kill off Vol'jin and leave him as war chief then following the end of Legion have the Death Loa whisper to him to support a war after Slyvannas suggesteds it over her ascension as leader. BFA can mostly continue the same. Shadowlands. But no the Jailer needs to directly have a hand in everything... Hell arguably you could even say he was using the Dreadlords to start cosmic wars to increase the likelihood of a powerful enough being to knock out the Arbiter to set off in motion his new war. So he still, on paper, seems like he's being everything.

[Khaza-R]

Azeroth is a world soul Titan not a First one unless your insinuating First ones are Titans

No, I saying it possible they are going to retcon that.

[Coniferous]

How did the Jailer corrupt Argus? It is clearly Sargeras who says "Rise Argus, rise my broken planet". And what does red color have to do with Zovaal? Unless Sargeras was collaborating with him for some reason (probably against the Void).

Honestly none of this matters. The moment they made Sargeras planet sized any hope of coherent story was lost forever.

[Wonderment2]

Azeroth is a world soul Titan not a First one unless your insinuating First ones are Titans

I could see the First Ones having made Azeroth more powerful by like pouring their essence into her?

That would explain why all the cosmic powers are so interested in what is essential a middle manager in the cosmic hierarchy. Assuming Titans and Eternal Ones are roughly as powerful/important as one another.

- - - Updated - - -

at 40 mins danneuser says otherwise as he talks about where certain life forms go when they die. Titans are not flesh and blood they are primodial beings filled with arcane energy
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/619631234/

I assume that's out the window now. Tbf game lore should be considered higher than mentioned in interviews lore. Be better of they had a straight story mind you.

[qwerty123456]

Ah, yes. Zovaa's gambit. World Soul corrupted by DEATH. Will we ever learn how Zovaal managed to pull off this gambit? Will we ever learn how Sargeras became completely oblivious to Argus being corrupted by some outside power when his entire crusade was about stopping something eerily similar AND when he was pumping him full of Fel himself? I'm waiting with bated breath.

The only bullshit explanation I can come up with is like Sargeras either killed Argus accidentally while torturing him or he was dying and the Nathrezim convinced him to turn him undead. Atleast this shit explains why he had half a skull head.

All this stuff is so retarded now. Like how would Zovaal know we would beat Argus?

[Varodoc]

The only bullshit explanation I can come up with is like Sargeras either killed Argus accidentally while torturing him or he was dying and the Nathrezim convinced him to turn him undead. Atleast this shit explains why he had half a skull head.

All this stuff is so retarded now. Like how would Zovaal know we would beat Argus?

The same way he knew the Heroes would stop N'Zoth from corrupting and taking control of the World Soul.

Plot armour and Asspulls.

[Mehrunes]

The only bullshit explanation I can come up with is like Sargeras either killed Argus accidentally while torturing him or he was dying and the Nathrezim convinced him to turn him undead. Atleast this shit explains why he had half a skull head.

All this stuff is so retarded now. Like how would Zovaal know we would beat Argus?

Zovaal is actually real and he writes the script. Danuser is just his humble servant doing his bidding while he's stuck in the IRL Maw.

[aceperson]

"a world soul twisted by death"... um... isn't argus the TITAN of death? how can you twist death with death?

[Mehrunes]

"a world soul twisted by death"... um... isn't argus the TITAN of death? how can you twist death with death?

By applying even more death and outdeathing their death.

[Coniferous]

The possibilities for bad lore in this patch are stunning. You have good Sylvanas making a comeback, Argus, and rumors of Arthas somehow being involved in the Anduin fight.

Couple that with the mistake they always make on the last patch, where they always try to mix in the ending of the current story with teasers for the next expansion, creating a hopelessly muddled mess, and man, you’ve got a stew going.

I can’t wait to hate watch it all unfold.

[Harthmut]

Nice, but titan souls do not go to the shadowlands upon death, as they are not mortal. Danuser is still retconning everything.

He's retconning the lore he himself established in the same expansion.
That must be a new record.

[Kathranis]

at 40 mins danneuser says otherwise as he talks about where certain life forms go when they die. Titans are not flesh and blood they are primodial beings filled with arcane energy
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/619631234/

Well, listening to that, he doesn't say that all Titans go to the same place. He says that there are two types of beings, mortals -- flesh and blood -- and magical beings, like demons, elementals, and apparently Titans.

The latter break down and reconstitute in their original plane, only truly dying and dispersing if they die in their own realm.

But it's not like all Elementals go to the same place when they die, right? They go to their respective elemental planes.

Each of the Titans is, in essence, a primordial being representing a different primordial power, right?

So maybe Argus, being imbued with the primordial power of Death, was actually connected to the plane of Death?


Just an idea, of course. This is an interview so it's not written in stone, I generally take everything they tweet or say in interviews to be subject to change.

[Felrane]

Honestly none of this matters. The moment they made Sargeras planet sized any hope of coherent story was lost forever.

Sargaeras has been planet sized since they introduced him. As are all Titans. So the coherent story stopped in Warcraft 2? lol

[bloodkin]

Honestly none of this matters. The moment they made Sargeras planet sized any hope of coherent story was lost forever.

Nah, that happened when they decided that not only do we somehow have multiple universes that somehow can be travel to through time travel and simple portals, opening a box they can NEVER close again. Having the shitstorm of multiple universes combined with near-limitless teleportation+time travel means everything that happens is by definition meaningless, as we can always go back and fix whatever we fucked up. WoD forever destroyed any value the lore had (directly after one of the more lore heavy expansions, no less).

Sargeras being a titan and going planet sized sin't even close to the level of fuckup blizz made with WoD timeline bullshit (as it was stated in older lore that Sarg could cleave planets in half with that sword).

That's also why I think that all lore afterwards (with some small exceptions) has been detrimental to whatever integrity wow had prior to WoD, and overall pointless and bad. Legion had some interesting tidbits, but didn't improve the lore integrity, same goes for BfA and shadowlands is just utterly shitting on the remains of what used to be an interesting fantasy world.

I haven't seen a single argument against this school of thought that can put any meaning or value in the base problem: Danuser et al made the entire lore meaningless and can never fix it without retconning the entire story of WoD and everything that happened as a result of WoD's story-line.

[Magnagarde]

At this point, the final explanation I'd like to see is that the titans are the "First Ones" and that killing a death-element titan(an unborn "First One") on the husk of the former planet Argus resulted in Argus' titan soul being sent to Azeroth's Shadowlands; the reason why Argus would be sent there is because there was a portal between Azeroth and Argus and Argus as a planet was destroyed, sewering the connection to the affiliated "afterlife". The Arbiter itself isn't worthy of judging a First One by design of the Shadowlands, let alone an unborn nascent First One that was tortured for millenia - a soul that simply can't be judged due to its fate. This would then result in the breaking down of the Arbiter once it had to judge Argus' innocent "First One" soul.

These "First Ones" seem to really like ordering things and experimenting with things, while also creating inorganic races to do the work for them once they pack up and leave. The entire concept of ordering afterlives sounds like a titan job. The architecture, phylosophy of overall design and general ordering of various processes is exactly what the titans would do.

It is getting extremely tiring to try to headcanon an explanation for Danuser's writing. As soon as you piece something together, five new revelations arrive making it all the more convoluted and bizzare.

[ohwell]

I'm tired of trying to pretend any of this Danuser-era lore is consistent

Ah yes just NOW it has become inconsistent.....yupp let's not pretend Metzen and his egotistical Twitter and Blizzcon rants to just get cool points because he was probably beat up in school had somehow been consistent....oh wait they weren't.

[Super Dickmann]

At this point, the final explanation I'd like to see is that the titans are the "First Ones" and that killing a death-element titan(an unborn "First One") on the husk of the former planet Argus resulted in Argus' titan soul being sent to Azeroth's Shadowlands; the reason why Argus would be sent there is because there was a portal between Azeroth and Argus and Argus as a planet was destroyed, sewering the connection to the affiliated "afterlife". The Arbiter itself isn't worthy of judging a First One by design of the Shadowlands, let alone an unborn nascent First One that was tortured for millenia - a soul that simply can't be judged due to its fate. This would then result in the breaking down of the Arbiter once it had to judge Argus' innocent "First One" soul.

These "First Ones" seem to really like ordering things and experimenting with things, while also creating inorganic races to do the work for them once they pack up and leave. The entire concept of ordering afterlives sounds like a titan job. The architecture, phylosophy of overall design and general ordering of various processes is exactly what the titans would do.

The First Ones just being what the Shadowlands dwellers call the Titans would solve an uncountable amount of plot problems and create both visual and story continuity, requiring much less work than making them their own thing. Thus, same as with how cutting most of the Bald Man's unnecessary connections to prior material, the writers won't do it.

[ohwell]

It feels like they're just sitting around the table and say "write whatever you want, not one cares as long as it's cool", but the worst thing is that it isn't cool...
This is getting more and more stupid.

There's like no consistency and seems like everything is possible.

See above, but also include your "cool" comments. I mean I'm sure the people who love to hate me for exposing their hypocrisy are waiting in the wings for me to mention "DID YOU SEE THE CATACLYSM!" and moments like that. Ever since Blizzcon was a thing, so was trying to exploit cool that wasn't really cool. I mean even Illidan in WC3 was written to be "amg he so cool man!" when he was just a whiney little scumbag that wasn't cool in the least. As usual: If you think the writing now is garbage, you always hated it as nothing changed.